want proof of how FuckedUP Health care in the US is?

[esomark]

Imagine this scenario...

Setting: You live on a street with 4 other people (Tom, Dick, Harry, Eugene). Tom has smoked for 20 years and now has lung cancer.

Knock, knock (on your door). You open the door. Dick, Harry, and Eugene are standing on your porch.

You: Hey guys. What's going on?

Dick: Well, you know about Tom, right? He's got the lung bug.

You: Yeah, that sucks. I heard he needs an operation.

Dick: That's why we're here. Can we get $1,000 from you?

You: Uh, no.

Dick: Dude, that's cold. He really needs that operation.

You: Dick, do you remember 20 years ago when we told him not to start smoking?

Dick: Yeah.

You: Do you remember you and I sitting him down several times to tell him to quit?

Dick: Yeah.

You: And you remember my printing reports for him to read about the effects of smoking?

Dick: Yeah.

You. We tried to stop him. And he chose to keep smoking. Now he has lung cancer.

Dick: That's why we need $1,000 from you, man.

You: I gave him $100 last week because he had no food in his fridge. How much did you give him last week?

Dick: That's not the point.

You: I have him $450 last month so he could keep his son in private school. How much did you give him?

Dick: That's not the point. He needs the operation...

You: Those weren't loans. I gave that money to him.

Dick: Well... we need $1,000 from you, man.

You: No.

*** [Dick, Harry, and Eugene leave, muttering something under their breath.]

*** [3 days later.]

*** [Knock, knock (on your door). It's Dick, Harry, and Eugene again.]

You: Hey guys, how's it going?

Dick: We came to collect $1,000 from you for Tom's operation.

You: I told you guys. I don't want to give $1,000.

Dick: Well, me and the guys were talking. We think it's better for everyone if you ponied up the $1,000.

You: No thanks.

Dick: We're not asking.

You: What do you mean?

Dick: We're a majority, man. We outvoted you. Give us the $1,000.

You: No.

*** [Dick pulls a firearm and points it at you.]

You: Whoa, whoa whoa... you're kidding, right?

Dick: Me, Harry, and Eugene here are each giving 15% of our last month's income. You need to give up 15%, too.

You: Wait a second. You and Harry are unemployed. And Eugene works part-time.

Dick: That's not the point. Go get the money Harry.

You: This isn't fair.

Dick: It's humane, man. We're trying to care for the people who need it most.

You: We told Tom to stop smoking! It was his decision!

Dick: That's not the point.

*** [Harry comes back with the $1,000. Dick, Harry, Eugene leave a bewildered "you" on your porch.]


------------------------------
And *that* is democracy, taxes, and health care all rolled up in one.

Go U.S.A.!

I realize some of you probably want to string me up for posting this. But, c'mon... not even a *little* humorous?

So as a result of this one little drawback you're saying that the poor people who never smoked, worked as hard as they could, but still can't afford healthcare should just die?

 

[fvaldes]

So as a result of this one little drawback you're saying that the poor people who never smoked, worked as hard as they could, but still can't afford healthcare should just die?

im guessing yes... only the strongest and smartest deserve to survive.
Free market baby!

 

[WickedJoe]

Guerilla, I don't think they skipped your post as much as ignored it because you make little sense.

If you actually socialize healthcare (not Obamalize healthcare) then you DO lower the fucking cost because you totally get rid of healthcare insurance companies. Things are not ran on a for-profit basis.
Nor do you have to worry about god damn oligopolies...

Also, I dont think you'll talk to anyone advocating socialized medicine who thinks it's "free". Our question is what percent extra tax will we have to pay for our safety. My goal is almost entirely selfish and I'm not on welfare and I don't think I ever will be.

Not only are health insurance companies gone, but in many forms of socialized healthcare they regulate a Max amt that certain drugs, and procedures can cost. So there goes your "increased cost" argument.

Most of us advocate "socialized healthcare" because there's many successful (or at least way more successful than us) examples of it already in existance.

By definition, socializing means taking most if not all of the healthcare control away from those oligopolies you speak of.

So your argument is that corporations will have even more control and profit if we let government/politicians take control of heatlhcare? I think you're wrong. But rem i'm not talking about Obamalizing it (half assing it).

 

[Moxie]

The solution is lowering the cost of healthcare, not subsidizing it.

Well, the United States system is already subsidized in that everything already gets paid for one way or another. Those paying for care are already covering the costs for those that don't.

It's not like the world is going to end if the USA adopted Canada's system or vice versa. People in both nations have basically the same quality of life.

 

[Trademark]

im guessing yes... only the strongest and smartest deserve to survive.
Free market baby!

Bummer. I was actually trying to illustrate the inherent flaw of democracy (mob rule) and the aggressive violation of property rights (taxation) in the name of the public good (universal health care).

I got the message, though: I stink at screenplays.

 

[Mastermind]

Also agree. I've been accused of being an Obama fan so much already but I don't support his Healthcare plan at all. It's far too half assed. And if you don't do it right then everyone loses both liberals and repubs. Of xourse we're all losing big time as is too.

But I think there are other countires we can look to as an example too. England and Canada do well.




That's how I'm guessing many people like you think. But you're completely wrong. I'd like to see how you would have faired w/out any public education whatsoever. Opportunity in the U.S. only exists for people like you and me because of a mix of good socialism, goverment regulation, and capitalism.
Once you realize that you'll stop fearing the words "socialism" and "government regulation". If you admit that we actually need a balance of those things... then the question will just become what balance of socialism, gov reg, and capitalism do we need. And instead of shouting rehashed retarded slogans about the evils of socialism (not saying you did) we can have a real conversation about what needs to be done. What will keep us from working at fucking Walmart at the age of 70 after saving 1mill for retirement but it all going bye bye because of an uncovered operation.

what the is your point? of course this isn't a purely free market country.

It's already socialist.

But it's the most capitalistic country on earth and that's the reason i've been able to succeed. Not because of public education - plenty of other countries have that. There's plenty of other countries where the people are probably a lot smarter and a lot hungrier. That's why foreigners come this country and within a couple of years become millionaires while lazy americans who eat mcdonalds everyday are complaining about health care.

Good mix?? fine- whatever makes you feel like you're right. but the reality is that capitalism is what drives progress and allows anyone who has the desire to participate in that progress in it if they so choose.

Get a damn umbrella policy and stop worrying so much.

The way I see it: our decisions are either driven fear/security or freedom/opportunity...

I'll let you decide what's driving yours.

 

[WickedJoe]

My point is pretty simple. People like you refuse to acknowledge the great help that socialized programs have given you to succeed. And it affects your view on socialized healthcare. And you often take it further by making "socialism" some kind of dirty word.

And then with the non-stop regurgitated nonsense like you just wrote:

capitalism is what drives progress

Well that's often true but capitalism also often stifles progress! Most true progress is gotten through government and university labs! Government pays for both (Grants)! But if you stick to your catchy little quote then you'll rarely acknowledge the downside of capitalism or the upside of socialist progs.

I don't want some garbage umbrella policy. I want the cheapest, most reliable, consistent heathcare that is always guaranteed to be there. This is socialized healthcare. I don't want some company trying TO MAXIMIZE THEIR FUCKING PROFITS by cutting every fucking corner they can and not paying for any procedure they can get away with.

My wife has worked in Medical Billing for years, so I know just how nasty and corrupt these insurance companies are. I know just what they try to get away with, etc. It drives docs mad, and medical insurance companies need to be eliminated one way or the other.

 

[vinny lingo]

The problem with the Libertarian dream is that we don't live in a perfect world. A perfect world being one where everyone who can work does work, and those who are unable to take care of themselves are taken care of 100% by voluntary efforts of other people (not government redistributing the people's money for them).

Were that the way things were, suggesting the socialization of healthcare would be uncalled for and truly nothing more than an obvious grab for more power by politicians. But it's not.

The problem lies in weed out the won't works from the can't works. People who are fully able to take care of themselves do deserve to be thrown out on their ass if they refuse to do so. But lumping in those who can't with those who won't and saying socialized healthcare is stealing from the rich to give to the lazy is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

I don't believe any rational, clear thinking person believes that socialized healthcare is free of cost. If that's what some need to think in order to stomach the idea then so be it. Because hey, who likes the idea of more taxes, right? But clearly something needs to be done.

I'm inclined to side with Guerilla that the true problem is the exorbitant price of healthcare. But how to reform the industry is the problem. And in the interim, we have people living without care because of the problem and its symptoms. That just won't do.

It's rather like any other subject. There's no clear answers. And whenever people try to discuss it, they fall all too quickly into ad hominem attacks.

 

[erect]

Not only are health insurance companies gone, but in many forms of socialized healthcare they regulate a Max amt that certain drugs, and procedures can cost. So there goes your "increased cost" argument.

There's some sort of misunderstand here, I believe you are quoting out of context.

The "increased cost" has to do with socializing it by taxing the rich (even more) to pay for the poor people's medical care. Then the rising cost goes to non-medical widgets that won't be capped. Corporations are smart enough to get their money one way or another.

Also, when you cap the amount certain drugs cost, you are also taking away the incentive for private medical research. That's not good for anyone.

Honestly, it is not just you WickedJoe, but everyone backing the healthcare regulation side of the argument. If you'll look a bit deeper into the big picture, you'll see by trying to fix one thing by passing power to the gov't, you'll end up shooting yourself in the foot somewhere else. DC is more wasteful than any corporation on the planet.

 

[HarveyJ]

DreamMachine: Yup, late 20s. Will bother getting health insurance before I turn 30 simply so I have a rating 1 for life, but will keep it on minimal until my 40s, or something starts acting up.

Cardine: You're missing my point. The US clearly has a two tiered health system. One that sucks for the people that can't afford to pay for actual treatments, and the rosy one where people actually get the medical attention they need.
Here, the medical attention is the same, and the quality of medical services are the same. They are paid for by the State. No one here faces a five figure bill for surgeries that cripples them financially. People are unlikely to have to shell out $30k for a round of Chemotheraphy here as the cost is absorbed by the state for residents and citizens... We actually get something in return ofr our tax money here.
The only reason you'd go for private insurance here is for elective procedures, and to have the fancier rooms that you don't have to share with other people pre and post op and a doctor that's white and smiles at you.

Guerilla: Actually, Chemotherapy is cheap. After the cost of the machinery, which is a sunk cost fo the hospital, a round of chemo should cost less than $150AUD for the drugs (they're mostly alkaline compounds, followed by metabolic inhibitors, and then some antibiotics). The astronomical costs of chemo in the US are entirely because of doctors charging ludicrous fees for their time (to justify their ludicrous tertiary education fees) and hospitals charging in sane amounts due to their insane insurance premiums based that are that high due to an overly litigious society.
Chemotherapy is cheap. That's why it's still one of the #1 treatments for cancer after all this time, and with so many other treatments available.
I've gotten this info direct from a radiooncologist friend who was scandalised by US practices after going to a medical conference in Washington.
To reiterate: It's not the chemotherapy that's the expensive part of chemotherapy. It's hard to argue for making it cheaper when it is cheap. The costs clearly need to come out of other parts of the equation.

 

[popeye]

It all boils down to - What the fuck is the federal government doing taking over the banking industries, financial institutions and now healthcare?

This is a DIRECT assault on the constitution. If we are going to use the constitution like a buffet and pick and choose what we want..we might as well do away with it.

I am truly astonished at what Obama has done. I am also astonished at how the American people just sit by and let it happen.

 

[esomark]

It all boils down to - What the fuck is the federal government doing taking over the banking industries, financial institutions and now healthcare?

This is a DIRECT assault on the constitution. If we are going to use the constitution like a buffet and pick and choose what we want..we might as well do away with it.

I am truly astonished at what Obama has done. I am also astonished at how the American people just sit by and let it happen.

Its got nothing to do with the constitution. I don't understand why a country should religiously stick by what some people wrote hundreds of yeas ago. If taking over healthcare can make life better for people, then fuck the constitution.

 

[Drew Iza]

My mother has worked for Blue Cross Blue Shield for 25 years, and I told her myself... That I hope one day she doesn't have a job to go to. Health Care is fucked up in the states. Something definitely needs to happen.

 

[Mikesev]

Its got nothing to do with the constitution. I don't understand why a country should religiously stick by what some people wrote hundreds of yeas ago. If taking over healthcare can make life better for people, then fuck the constitution.

Don't be so quick to dismiss it. The net effect of the Constitution is undoubtedly positive.

It's one thing I really do wish we had in the UK.

 

[neab1as]

US Health care isnt exactly all it's cracked up to be.

True Story .. bleeding from my head (nother thread behind that haha) walked into the ER but the blood wasn't gushing at the time merely dripping down my forehead.

waited 4 hours before saying fuck it and walking to a walgreens picking up some liquid skin, thread, needles, and whatever other medical supplies and put my own flesh back together ... used ice to numb the spot and still have the scar today!

still .. love the US health care system .. oh forgot to mention I was fully insured.

 

[esomark]

Don't be so quick to dismiss it. The net effect of the Constitution is undoubtedly positive.

It's one thing I really do wish we had in the UK.

Why? There are pros and cons to a codified constitution, just wondering what you think..

 

[Mikesev]

Why? There are pros and cons to a codified constitution, just wondering what you think..

Having your fundamental democratic rights written in a form that is well protected and defended is a valuable thing. It holds the government accountable, it might not always seem like it but there is some barrier against abuse.

It also makes it harder to push through significant legislative changes, which is a good thing when (like with healthcare) it has a huge impact.

In the UK we're not even citizens but subjects, beholden to the monarch and her government. Trial by jury has been abolished for certain crimes, you can be incarcerated for up to 90 days without charge ,along with a thousand other erosions of civil liberty.

 

[transistor]

Its got nothing to do with the constitution. I don't understand why a country should religiously stick by what some people wrote hundreds of yeas ago. If taking over healthcare can make life better for people, then fuck the constitution.

jesus christ, you're a fucking moron

 

[popeye]

Its got nothing to do with the constitution. I don't understand why a country should religiously stick by what some people wrote hundreds of yeas ago. If taking over healthcare can make life better for people, then fuck the constitution.

Who says that universal healthcare will make life better for people. Obama, one of his gangsters, you?

Their is not one person that can accurately predict the outcome of such a huge program. Why would this gov program work, when ALL of the rest suck.

Where are all of these poor people that don't have healthcare. Anyone that needs medical attention can recieve it for absolutely free. I know many people that don't have insurance that recieve the SAME exact care that I do with the SAME exact doctors.

Obama and his street gang don't give a FUCK about healthcare. Don't let them fool you. This healthcare shit is about power. It's one more way to enslave the people. It's one more way to make the people dependent upon the government.

The statement about the constitution is idiotic, so I won't address that statement.

 

[esomark]

Who says that universal healthcare will make life better for people. Obama, one of his gangsters, you?

Their is not one person that can accurately predict the outcome of such a huge program. Why would this gov program work, when ALL of the rest suck.

Where are all of these poor people that don't have healthcare. Anyone that needs medical attention can recieve it for absolutely free. I know many people that don't have insurance that recieve the SAME exact care that I do with the SAME exact doctors.

Obama and his street gang don't give a FUCK about healthcare. Don't let them fool you. This healthcare shit is about power. It's one more way to enslave the people. It's one more way to make the people dependent upon the government.

The statement about the constitution is idiotic, so I won't address that statement.

My point was, constitution should have nothing to do with whether America adopts healthcare.

Transistor: nice input, perhaps you want to expand on that.