want proof of how FuckedUP Health care in the US is?

[Rusky]

I'm already looking at 35% in taxes - just wondering what the stimulus, plus the cap and trade, plus the government medical is going to do to me. I'd rather have the freedom to choose.

I might be looking at 50-60% when all is said and done.

 

[guerilla]

There is no consistency in their argumentation.

There is no consistency because they believe what they are told in moments of fear.

Like the OP, they see a crisis and they want to respond without first understanding the crisis. Most global warming alarmism is like this. In fact, collectivism as a whole is driven by negative emotions like fear, hatred and jealousy.

I was really shockened by the responses, because I wasn't even discussing whether health care should be private or public, I was merely saying that public health care was not free.

That's usually what happens. People strawman your position. They say if you are not for X, then you must be for Y, where X and Y are a false dichotomy.

It is a way of dumbing down the debate by never allowing you to question the premise of your opponent's argument.

 

[LogicFlux]

Many are blind folded about that over here in Norway. They first claim my system would not be for the good of the people because the health care today is free of charge. When I explain to them why it isn't they still favor it with another argument. There is no consistency in their argumentation. They also don't see that what the social democracts and socialist politicians over here har over them is their fear. Fear has always been the #1 tool to keep this system in place. If people would let the fear go and think rationally many problems would be solved.

I have no idea where they get the idea of that it's free from. It seems that to them that as long as you don't pay "there and then", it's free. Teachers teach this to blind high school kids who buy the fear propaganda right on.

I remember a teacher I had in modern historics in high school saying "blabla but we have free health care here blablbla". I said "It's not free". He: "What are you talking about?" "It's not free" "Well does it look like you're paying for health care here?". "Yes. Taxes." "Well, I don't think that that makes the health care not free". "So, you pay for it in taxes, but it's still free?" "Yes, I think one could say it's free." "Ok so what you're saying is that as long as it's financed, that is, PAYED for, via a tax payment, it's free?" "Yes. As long as you don't pay there and then."

And then I got most of the class against me too. I was really shockened by the responses, because I wasn't even discussing whether health care should be private or public, I was merely saying that public health care is not free.

It sounds like you were born in the wrong country. LOL

What are your views on god, soccer, reality TV and guns? Answer correctly and we'll let you in.

 

[dsm56]

I have lived in the UK and Hungary, my father is a surgeon in the UK, private sector, so I have perspective on European systems.

First of all, anyone who wants decent healthcare in the UK pays extra. Everyone knows that if you don't pay extra, you have to wait forever to get treated for anything that is not an emergency. Most people who can, turn to private health insurance.

Americans seem to really admire these wonderful "available for all" systems. The problem is that while it looks great right now, it is completely unsustainable. The contribution that people make to it right now is not enough, and health care costs INCREASE every year as newer technologies emerge, that are more and more expensive. The cost of healthcare relative to GBP is constantly increasing. Why? Because 100 years ago there was no MRI, and now there is, so that has additional costs.

I am completely shocked, like guerilla at some of the posts here, and how you guys are making money on the internet. Frankly, last time I heard these arguments it was from my grandmother who grew up in communist Hungary, and thinks half the things around her are her RIGHT.

Why do people constantly think that healthcare is a RIGHT, almost as if it has zero cost? Even in a socialist system, even if you don't put a monetary value on it, saving people and treating them costs something. Who pays for this? Either it is the customer, or as guerilla said you force everyone to pay.

Now right now 10% of everything I make is forced to be taken away from me. And that 10% is not enough and is failing. Not to mention, most people pay extra above that 10% to get decent quick healthcare. So tbh, saving all the teachers for $15.000 chemo costs most british citizens around $400 per month not $20 as someone said above.

Is that fair?

Well, instead of using a teacher example which distorts the argument one way, let's use a different distortion.

My sister just qualified as a nurse and spends most of her time helping drug addicts who completely fuck themselves up. That means my taxes are going on her $30000 per year on helping people who destroy themselves?? Do they HAVE a RIGHT to this treatment?

There is this rediculous statistic that 10% of Hungarians are alcoholics. It is probably true. Most of these people live below the poverty line, are upset because communism collapsed where they were given everything for free, now they have nothing, and now they refuse to work don't contribute anything to society.

These people are being kept alive for thousands of dollars every month in hospitals because they have RIGHT to it.

There are 10m hungarians and 1.5m pay for the entire health insurance bill. Why? Because hardly anyone works, and the rest that do avoid taxes. What is the result? The 1.5m are forced to pay around 25% of their tax on health. Is that fair? What about the 1.5m people's right to spending their own work's rewards?

To actually try to get into some economic theory, the real question is, if healthcare has a cost, where do you draw the line at how much you treat someone. As someone's age increases, the marginal cost of treatment constantly increases.
80% of money spent on one person's healthcare is spent when they are over 70. Now, the question is, how long do you keep someone alive? As long as you can? But as time goes on, the cost of that always increases? Why do you force people to pay shitloads of money, just so you can keep an 80 year old alive at all cost? Because it is nice?

The trouble is we are not talking about $1000 of dollars here. We are talking hundreds of thousands if not millions to keep one person alive. Do you really think that is the best way to spend that money? That 80 year old will probably never add anything more to society. It sounds harsh, but as there is finite money, you have to think about these things. Because money is finite, that million could be better spent on something better, or preventing the disease in the first place.

If that 80 year old is rich, yes he can pay for it himself, why not. But if it is down to the government, the government cannot simply afford everything.

OK, just to finish off with one counter argument...

In terms of numbers, right now americans have got it quite bad. I think contributions to healthcare in the US is around 17% of GDP, whereas in the UK it is 9%. The Uk system is collapsing, but would probably work if everyone contributed 17%. But yet again, what about MY RIGHTS? What about my right to just stop working because I don't want to give all my fucking work to the government?

 

[fvaldes]

fast or slow, what has to be done is something intelligent.

Again, you're worried about your reaction time as much, if not more than, the actual appropriate reaction.

Haste makes waste. Short term thinking will lead to long term failures.


No, no time sorry.

ahahaha well, you missed the hole point! WATCH THEM please...
and then tell me what you think

 

[knukk]

It sounds like you were born in the wrong country. LOL

What are your views on god, soccer, reality TV and guns? Answer correctly and we'll let you in.

haha

1. God - Doesn't exist.
2. Soccer - Love it!
3. Reality TV - Fine
4. Guns - I support the right to own arms

So I guess 1 and 2 resulted in a FAIL on my US VISA application? :zzwhip:

 

[fvaldes]

There is no consistency because they believe what they are told in moments of fear.

Like the OP, they see a crisis and they want to respond without first understanding the crisis. Most global warming alarmism is like this. In fact, collectivism as a whole is driven by negative emotions like fear, hatred and jealousy.

That's usually what happens. People strawman your position. They say if you are not for X, then you must be for Y, where X and Y are a false dichotomy.

It is a way of dumbing down the debate by never allowing you to question the premise of your opponent's argument.

watch the videos.... it is an interview with a top corporate guy from Cigma.. a health insurance company

 

[guerilla]

ahahaha well, you missed the hole point! WATCH THEM please...
and then tell me what you think

I already read the notes below them.

It misses the point. It doesn't matter if the companies rape for insane profits. I am opposed to that. The solution is to remove their oligopoly powers and allow everyone to compete with them. Their profits will vanish as other actors come into their industry and offer lower prices and more service.

Demonizing the wealthy and successful is not the answer. If you want to reduce profits, encourage competition. Poor and middle class people are so fucking stupid sometimes, they think if they are prevented from competing through regulation, the government can force the wealthy to serve them. They continually get fucked and ask for more of the same. And politicians are more than happy to propose solutions that keep them out of the market, and the fat cats paying for re-election campaigns.

 

[Uzzz]

Canadian Health care is good... when you don't have any major problems. When you require something immediate, you're fucked!...Time to pony up and go to states. Then again, since everything is free here, people tend to clog up the ER's with minor sniffles and cuts which normally you would let time do its thing. Docs send you for xrays/utlrasounds any chance they get. Cha Ching. Walk in clinics take about 2 mintues to diagnose you...Cha ching....

I believe in Preventive Health Care... stem the problems before they start.

 

[Randy72560]

Ah this might be the dumbest OP I've ever seen on here. I really hate Michael Moore propaganda. Here is the solution to those who don't have health care -

Get a job, buy insurance. End of story, quit looking for someone to bail you out ffs, take some responsibility, act like an adult and handle your business.

I'm positive I'm going to get flamed on this, but consider this. Most people in America HAVE some type of health insurance already. Mainly because they worked for it and got it through their job, or they got it themselves.

Maybe someone should focus on removing the illegal aliens from our health care system which would free up about 50+ billion being wasted every year. Use that money to provide some limited additional benefits for a short time. Similar to unemployment which should have an end game. This is a much more reasonable solution than our government who has NEVER managed anything properly trying to manage our health care.

the general flaw in all this is that the government is NOT suppose to be involved in shit liek this, that is not what this country is supposed to be about. If youa re so concerned with "doing good" or "helping others and caring" go join the fucking peace corps or something, Find a charity. But don't impose crap liek this on people that already handle their business. Once again this is another way to redistribute the wealth. The lazy have not's want to grab a part of the have's.

Myself, I don't need someone to "help me out because they care" I'm an adult and will handle that. I don't need more government in my life. I wasn't raised to look for someone to "help me" because I made bad decisions or w/e.

 

[johnmatrix]

I'm already looking at 35% in taxes - just wondering what the stimulus, plus the cap and trade, plus the government medical is going to do to me. I'd rather have the freedom to choose.

I might be looking at 50-60% when all is said and done.

we pay 45% here in Australia so big fucken whoop!!

 

[johnmatrix]

Ah this might be the dumbest OP I've ever seen on here. I really hate Michael Moore propaganda. Here is the solution to those who don't have health care -

Get a job, buy insurance. End of story, quit looking for someone to bail you out ffs, take some responsibility, act like an adult and handle your business.

You're missing the point... Michael Moore's propaganda was about the insurance companies fucking you over by refusing to pay your medical bills for whatever bullshit reason they came up with, rather than people not being able to afford insurance at all (that is obviously a problem too).

Reminds me of that Denzel movie 'John Q', where his medical insurance wouldn't cover the cost of his sons heart transplant surgery, so he takes the hospital hostage to get it done. Great movie!

 

[LotsOfZeros]

Ah this might be the dumbest OP I've ever seen on here. I really hate Michael Moore propaganda. Here is the solution to those who don't have health care -

Get a job, buy insurance. End of story, quit looking for someone to bail you out ffs, take some responsibility, act like an adult and handle your business.

I'm positive I'm going to get flamed on this, but consider this. Most people in America HAVE some type of health insurance already. Mainly because they worked for it and got it through their job, or they got it themselves.

Maybe someone should focus on removing the illegal aliens from our health care system which would free up about 50+ billion being wasted every year. Use that money to provide some limited additional benefits for a short time. Similar to unemployment which should have an end game. This is a much more reasonable solution than our government who has NEVER managed anything properly trying to manage our health care.

the general flaw in all this is that the government is NOT suppose to be involved in shit liek this, that is not what this country is supposed to be about. If youa re so concerned with "doing good" or "helping others and caring" go join the fucking peace corps or something, Find a charity. But don't impose crap liek this on people that already handle their business. Once again this is another way to redistribute the wealth. The lazy have not's want to grab a part of the have's.

Myself, I don't need someone to "help me out because they care" I'm an adult and will handle that. I don't need more government in my life. I wasn't raised to look for someone to "help me" because I made bad decisions or w/e.

Preach on brotha.

 

[Crisis]

Grad students don't have that kind of debt in Europe due to public funding of Education papajohn.

As for research - Karolinska Institute, Imperial, Cambridge and Oxford have some of the best medical research institutes on the planet.

As any prof at Top Tier Medical Schools - Stanford, Hopkins, Harvard or Yale - and they will agree.

As you're well aware, Karolinska academics decide the Nobel Prize in Medicine each year. Cambridge churns out some of the best quantitative minds - consistently - that the world knows. Imperial too, which can compete with MIT or Caltech.

No one is saying that well paid doctors shouldn't make money - millions either.

However, where in the hypocratic oath does it say doctors should be concerned principally about money?

All this bullshit talk about economic theory from people who don't have
any credentials at best and is not supported by any data at worst.


There are absolutely and fundamentally externalities involved with Healthcare. That among many other issues supports some government intervention.


Besides the fact that anyone who is becoming a doctor just because of the profit is in the wrong profession.

An exotic interest rate options trader makes just as much money as a cardiologist, urologist or neurosurgeon. Try that profession if profit is your only motive.


Lastly, I there's plenty of private care in Europe and no one is advocating not having private care.

However, things like education, healthcare...for goodness sakes, if other wealthy, civilized western countries can provide those basic things for the people who can't afford it, why can't the USA?

Half of the world's top medicals are publically funded. The gov't supports public education which means that students don't have to take out debt and can hence work for public hospitals and still not be in debt.

Also, alot of people from working class backgrounds who would probably never make it to medical schools in up there.

Here's is verifiable data to back up my contention:

Times Higher Supplement in the UK ranked of the top 100 world biomedicine

Here is the top 20:
1) Harvard (US)
2) Cambridge (UK)
3) Oxford (UK)
4) Imperial College London (UK)
5) Stanford (US)
6) Johns Hopkins (US)
7) Karolinska Institute (Sweden)
8) Yale (US)
9) UC Berkeley (US)
10) UCSD (US)
11) Beijing (China)
12) MIT (US)
13) Tokyo (Japan)
14) Melbourne (Australia)
15) Sydney (Australia)
16) Heidelberg (Germany)
17) Duke (US)
18) UCSF (US)
19) University College London (UK)
20) Toronto (Canada)


40+ million americans walking around with less healthcare affects me as a business person. It means I have less healthy people to hire. If an employees' kids get sick it means they have to take off work. American business people are at a disadvantage compared to their European counterparts.

Do you know how expensive it is to try to provide coverage for just a few employees??

The costs not being internalized affects everyone not just the individual man or woman not insured....

If you are a graphical person, one could look at it llike this:

Q.E.D.

Everyone should just keep quoting this because apparently some of you guys still don't want to believe or even understand it. Keep up the good work riddar, some of the arguments these guys are throwing back are weak. It seems to me to be a case of "Our system can't be wrong because no one does better than us".

 

[death]

Well most hospitals are all about money. Trying to make a profit

 

[schockergd]

If socialized medicine is so much better in EU/CDN than the US , then why does canada have such a higher ER wait time?



Watch this video : [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2jijuj1ysw]YouTube - ObamaCare Yay Or Nay? The Truth About Canada![/ame] about canadian health care, then come back and say you want it.

 

[Rusky]

Government is not always the answer.
Things need to change, why not propose other ideas not a government take over.
You know how much doctors pay for insurance - the cost of law suits has made our medical system much more expensive. (My Doctor told me the cost of insurance eats a huge chunk of the money he makes) Plus what about illegal immigrants - hospitals are left with multi million dollar unpaid bills in every state. Theres got to be ways to twik the system.

Schools, Social Security, Welfare - are you happy with these government run systems now. I wouldn't trust the government to baby sit my 1 year old kid - why the hell would I want them caring for his health.

 

[fvaldes]

Ah this might be the dumbest OP I've ever seen on here. I really hate Michael Moore propaganda. Here is the solution to those who don't have health care -

Get a job, buy insurance. End of story, quit looking for someone to bail you out ffs, take some responsibility, act like an adult and handle your business.

I'm positive I'm going to get flamed on this, but consider this. Most people in America HAVE some type of health insurance already. Mainly because they worked for it and got it through their job, or they got it themselves.

Maybe someone should focus on removing the illegal aliens from our health care system which would free up about 50+ billion being wasted every year. Use that money to provide some limited additional benefits for a short time. Similar to unemployment which should have an end game. This is a much more reasonable solution than our government who has NEVER managed anything properly trying to manage our health care.

the general flaw in all this is that the government is NOT suppose to be involved in shit liek this, that is not what this country is supposed to be about. If youa re so concerned with "doing good" or "helping others and caring" go join the fucking peace corps or something, Find a charity. But don't impose crap liek this on people that already handle their business. Once again this is another way to redistribute the wealth. The lazy have not's want to grab a part of the have's.

Myself, I don't need someone to "help me out because they care" I'm an adult and will handle that. I don't need more government in my life. I wasn't raised to look for someone to "help me" because I made bad decisions or w/e.

yeah Randy.. you a real genius.. get a job!... that solves it... thank you for the wisdow.... may be you should WATCH the damn videos and read the whole thread before posting

 

[Mastermind]

NEWSFLASH: The real problem isn't health care. The real problem is a culture of self inflicted disease.

Your idol Mr. Moore is a part of the problem not a part of the solution.

 

[Mastermind]

Ah this might be the dumbest OP I've ever seen on here. I really hate Michael Moore propaganda. Here is the solution to those who don't have health care -

Get a job, buy insurance. End of story, quit looking for someone to bail you out ffs, take some responsibility, act like an adult and handle your business.

I'm positive I'm going to get flamed on this, but consider this. Most people in America HAVE some type of health insurance already. Mainly because they worked for it and got it through their job, or they got it themselves.

Maybe someone should focus on removing the illegal aliens from our health care system which would free up about 50+ billion being wasted every year. Use that money to provide some limited additional benefits for a short time. Similar to unemployment which should have an end game. This is a much more reasonable solution than our government who has NEVER managed anything properly trying to manage our health care.

the general flaw in all this is that the government is NOT suppose to be involved in shit liek this, that is not what this country is supposed to be about. If youa re so concerned with "doing good" or "helping others and caring" go join the fucking peace corps or something, Find a charity. But don't impose crap liek this on people that already handle their business. Once again this is another way to redistribute the wealth. The lazy have not's want to grab a part of the have's.

Myself, I don't need someone to "help me out because they care" I'm an adult and will handle that. I don't need more government in my life. I wasn't raised to look for someone to "help me" because I made bad decisions or w/e.

well said.

And the bottom line is that this socialist agenda can only be achieved by RAISING TAXES.

That is NOT what this country is about.

And for the record, the best doctors in the world are in the United States. There are exceptions of course, but that's simply common knowledge.

Let's keep it that way...