Ah, Religion - My Short Story
- Thread starter SUP3RNOVA
- Start date
Ha, I've wondered about that.
The Bible speaks of Jesus going alone to pray fervently by himself.
Sooooo, was he talking to himself? Is that what "Christians" believe?
When go and pray, he doesn't talk to himself... he talks to his father in heaven.. through praying.. which what he want us to do to
Right, but there are Christians who pray to Jesus, believing that Jesus IS God.
That's what i'm referring to.
^I believe that among all of Christianity, those particular Christians are referred to as the Christians that ride the little yellow bus to church. 
To argue the merits of the Christianity is one thing - but the last few messages simply show a misunderstanding of Christian theology.
If a Christian is praying to a dead person - then they are doing it wrong.
If a Christian is praying to a dead person - then they are doing it wrong.
^I believe that among all of Christianity, those particular Christians are referred to as the Christians that ride the little yellow bus to church.
Didn't read the thread until this last page, don't care much about religion anymore. That being said... if you ar-tards don't understand the concept of the Trinity and its context within christianity then you don't have the basis of understanding to argue against it or debunk it.
What's next, going to try and argue against physics without knowing what atoms are?
It's pretty clear what the Trinity is.
Jesus = God = Holy Spirit
When you pray to God, you're praying to Jesus. When you pray to the Holy Spirit, you're praying to Jesus.
Jesus was (possibly) a man who existed in ancient history, he lived and was killed.
Therefore, praying to Jesus is praying to a person who is dead.
Formal, contemporary religions like Christianity and Islam are the desperate hope people cling to for comfort when faced with death, isolation, and suffering.
If anyone sat down and thought about their religion objectively, examined their own "faith" and their religious books, instructions, dogma, etc. they would realize they are trusting the word of people not to be incorrect.
For example, the Catholic Pope is believed to be perfect, a saint, and yet popes in the past have been as immoral as any other person, murdering rivals, having sex, and there was even a female pope who got pregnant. If the epitome of human morality can be corrupt and fallible, how can you trust the stories they have written and passed off as the word of God? (Bible, Koran, etc.)
People used to believe the Earth was flat, or that the Sun revolved around the Earth. They were less knowledgeable than we are. They were closer to the primitive past. Some cultures worship the Sun, or the spirits of animals. Their faith is just as honest as yours, which is to say, based on primitive belief and clung to for comfort.
Just because it "feels right" doesn't mean it's true. Santa Claus is a nice happy illusion that children share, because it's fun. Just because it feels good to think someone is watching over you and will reward you for good deeds doesn't make it real.
Why do you believe? Follow it back as far as you can, analyze your feelings and be honest with yourself. If you are truly honest, you can't put your trust in people from thousands of years ago that you never met, just because other people you know believe in them. "Faith" just means trusting that which has earned no trust.
There is no strict definition for agnostic. In my personal view, I don't know if there is a superior being out there. I do believe, however, that contemporary religions that require us to worship some anthropromorphic entity that wants us to go to Church or pray to them (which doesn't make sense, since everything is supposedly predestined) or make women cover their faces or men to not cut their hair or touch food with their left hand... these are all superstitious nonsense.
However, I do know that there are unanswered questions. I can't explain what consciousness is. I could explain a world full of automatons, creatures that evolved and tried to survive and eventually developed an advanced society. But none of that explains the fact that I can feel and think and be self-aware. And I can't explain where the universe came from.
I'm pretty sure it wasn't some bearded guy in a white robe, though. And I'm pretty sure that most religions do more harm than good, in the end, by reinforcing separatism, prejudice, misogyny, and xenophobia.
If anyone sat down and thought about their religion objectively, examined their own "faith" and their religious books, instructions, dogma, etc. they would realize they are trusting the word of people not to be incorrect.
For example, the Catholic Pope is believed to be perfect, a saint, and yet popes in the past have been as immoral as any other person, murdering rivals, having sex, and there was even a female pope who got pregnant. If the epitome of human morality can be corrupt and fallible, how can you trust the stories they have written and passed off as the word of God? (Bible, Koran, etc.)
People used to believe the Earth was flat, or that the Sun revolved around the Earth. They were less knowledgeable than we are. They were closer to the primitive past. Some cultures worship the Sun, or the spirits of animals. Their faith is just as honest as yours, which is to say, based on primitive belief and clung to for comfort.
Just because it "feels right" doesn't mean it's true. Santa Claus is a nice happy illusion that children share, because it's fun. Just because it feels good to think someone is watching over you and will reward you for good deeds doesn't make it real.
Why do you believe? Follow it back as far as you can, analyze your feelings and be honest with yourself. If you are truly honest, you can't put your trust in people from thousands of years ago that you never met, just because other people you know believe in them. "Faith" just means trusting that which has earned no trust.
There is no strict definition for agnostic. In my personal view, I don't know if there is a superior being out there. I do believe, however, that contemporary religions that require us to worship some anthropromorphic entity that wants us to go to Church or pray to them (which doesn't make sense, since everything is supposedly predestined) or make women cover their faces or men to not cut their hair or touch food with their left hand... these are all superstitious nonsense.
However, I do know that there are unanswered questions. I can't explain what consciousness is. I could explain a world full of automatons, creatures that evolved and tried to survive and eventually developed an advanced society. But none of that explains the fact that I can feel and think and be self-aware. And I can't explain where the universe came from.
I'm pretty sure it wasn't some bearded guy in a white robe, though. And I'm pretty sure that most religions do more harm than good, in the end, by reinforcing separatism, prejudice, misogyny, and xenophobia.
I like you turbolapp, but do you ever read your own posts when it comes to this stuff? You admitted that you don't know shit, and then you're calling out "asshole" to anyone that does.
Now I'm not trying to be a prick, but I hate it when people assume that because you believe a certain way, that you are "too dumb" to form an independent thought. I'd imagine that if you talked to some of these "sheeple" on an individual basis, and asked them why they believe what they believe, instead of just assuming and labeling groups of people, you'd find out that many of them have life changing experiences that keep them from believing any other way.
And for admitting that you don't know shit, it's mighty presumptuous of you to assume that you are not on the "earth is flat" side of this argument. I'm just sayin...
I don't think that's valid because you're neglecting the source of the belief. They either :
a) Were brought up believing in religion as a child.
b) Were brought up not believing, but knowing that beliefs existed and that millions of people believed in God. Then it becomes easy to label literally *anything* as miraculous and divine. People only notice it when they want to. They are God, Jesus, etc...just an idea.
It's a possibility and IMO, a likely one.
Of course it becomes easy to label literally "anything" as miraculous. But then again you're assuming that people are stupid enough to label "anything" as miraculous (some are, but not most). And instead of finding out that a person's new found belief is NOT based on a bad piece of chicken they ate last night, you're just going to assume they're missing a piece of their happy meal. - And when I say people have life changing experiences that prevent them from believing any other way, you can't chalk that up to "anything". It's going to take quite a bit for me to start believing in the "flying spaghetti monster". I'm not going to believe in him just because thousands or even millions of others are telling me he's real. Do you even realize how ridiculous that sounds? People keep using that for an argument without even contemplating - well duh, maybe there's more to it than just people "saying" he's real.
Just ask turbolapp what it would take for her to convert into a believer. And then realize that there are numerous accounts of atheists, just as smart, if not smarter than her that have converted. What did it possibly take for them to convert? Could you still say that it was "easy" for them to label anything miraculous or divine? Or could there - just possibly - be something or someone out there higher than ourselves, that reveals himself to people in such an undeniable way that they start wearing spaghetti monster T-shirts without giving a rip what others think?
Muslims believe in God, not Jehovah God, which is the God Christians believe in. So no, it is two different God's. God isnt jealous of humans. God is jealous of "other gods." The bible states that many times. As far as trying to figure out traits of God, I think it is impossible for mortals to figure out a higher power. If that were so, we wouldnt be mortals.
Wrong. It's the same god of the 3 religions. People need to get over this and start asking the most important question: Which of the 3 is the prodigal son?
Mortal just means we can and will die someday. Technically, don't religious people believe humans have "immortal souls"? Unlike dogs and rocks.
If you mean, "it's too hard/complex/not meant for us to figure out" then you are just putting your head in the sand. If we can't figure it out, by our very nature, it all comes down to faith which means something along the lines of "It makes me feel funny in my head when I think of God; that must be faith."
Drugs and alcohol make me feel funny in my head. Being horny or angry or scared makes me feel funny, too. Our brain sometimes plays tricks on us. The "god" feeling is just a really mean trick.
I agree. But millions and millions of people do only believe because everyone around them does (I did for a while). It's the finest example of brainwashing you could ever come up with.
It's ridiculous.
Again that's an assumption. Just because you did, doesn't mean that everyone is as gullible as you. As comforting as that might be for you to believe, there's no way that you can even begin to know what a million other people are thinking, or have gone through.
Sure there may be (and I believe there are) a lot of people out there like you that have never had a true life changing revelation, but simply go along w/ what they were brought up with. I was once very close to where you are. I was brought up in a Christian family, and while I wasn't "forced" to believe in God, I did go along with the belief, because I trusted my parents. However during my late teens and early twenties I struggled with what I believed in. A lot of stuff from the Bible didn't make sense to me. And believe me, Atheists out there do a good job of taking Bible verses out of their full context, and making God sound like he contradicts himself. It's easy to do with a book that has been translated out of it's original language literally thousands of times, And was penned by many different writers. (- But that's another story) My point is that I seriously struggled w/ the concept of "God". And I thought to myself that the only way I'm going to continue going along with what my parents believe, is if I personally have an encounter with God. And not just something that "feels good". And if you did go to Church growing up, then you know that there are plenty of "feel good" opportunities. I'm talking about something that is undeniable, something that can't be explained away with any other type of explanation other than God is real. And I basically said to - God - Spaghetti Monster - or whoever is out there, if you're real, please find a way to reveal yourself to me. And without realizing it, I was putting the concept of Revelation 3:20 into practice. And I had a "true revelation".
And I'm telling you, more of those "sheeple" than you realize have had "true revelations" so undeniable that they have no other choice than to believe.
You hit the nail on the head. It all does come down to faith. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not yet seen.
Unfortunately, this isnt something in which I can give you a satisfactory answer, and something I am sure to be flamed over.
I want to be upfront. I am a Muslim but not because I was born as such and I will prove to you that if you want to go the racial way, you can't choose anything but Islam.
My Story:
I was born on an Island in the south east of Tunisia. It's called Djerba. I belonged to a certain undergroup of Islam that is REALLY far from what I am now. The group I belonged to considered any muslim who commits a capital sin to be a non-muslim who will end in Hell(Djahennam). I used to pray way differently and I thought it was the right way. 80% of the inhabitants of that island belong to this group and are influencial and rich. So there were some arrogance involved in my belief. 17% belonged to another group and the rest were Jews living on the island since 2000 years or so.
Side note: We have never had problems with them.
Anyways... I had to leave the island to continue my studies at the university. I came to Germany. In the first year, I didn't bother asking myself questions about my faith but then, I started looking around me. 90% of the muslims I encountered prayed differently (the movements). So I asked myself: What makes you so sure that you are right and others are wrong? Heck, what makes you sure muslims are right and jews or christians are wrong?
You might as why am I not considering Buddists, Taoists or atheism.
A: The 3 religions are the only ones claiming to worship a higher being, not another human, a rock or a cow (no offense, that's my reasoning). Why would I have to worship something/someone equal or inferior to me? Atheism is no alternative for me for logical reasons I will explain later.
Q: How could I weed out Christianism and Judaism?
A: Each one of the 3 religions claims to have the word of god in their hands. To be able to find out who is right, I would have to work on the texts to verify of these are really the words of God and here comes the first problem with Christianism and Judaism:
The language Moses spoke was ancient Egyptian and Jesus spoke Aramean. Any historian would confirm this fact. It would be absurd for a prophet (even if he is the son of god) to talk to people in a language they don't understand. Lastly, he is there to warn them.
So, the first prequisite would be to at least give me access to the source... There is no version of the bible or the Torah in these languages. If you find them, I would be glad to consider my choice once again. If you say that having translations is enough, I will have to disagree at least to calling it the word of god. That's why muslim call only the quran in arabic the word of god. Anything else is an approximate translation of the meanings of quran. A 1-to-1 translation from one language to another is impossible and especially from a language similar to arabic(aramean and arabic have the same origin and are very different in the way words are built from greek for example) to another one.
We muslims claim the quran to be the work of god, who is btw different from the god christians and jews worship. Why? Because he has different characteristics. Jews said that God is poor and they are rich. They said he fought with Jacob and lost. Christians said he's got a son. They said he eats and drinks (since Jesus is God). We say that God is the prefection. Eating is a sign of imperfection, having a son is one too.
To make a long story short about the choice of the group I now belong to, I had to get back to the sources and to learn a science that only muslims developed called the science of tradition, used to authenticate texts spoken by the prophet and his companions. In the end, I don't do anything if I don't know the exact evidence for it from the original texts which btw can be interpreted according to strict rules, so that I can claim to be able to prove that everything I do is logical.
Atheism and Logic:
Before I go ahead, I want to illustrate a point a lot of people don't really bother to think about. That is honesty.
Before I started diving into this whole matter I swore to myself I would be honest to myself and I would follow whatever route I find to be right no matter how inconvenient it can be for me. It's about doing what is right and not what is easier.
It's easy to say I am atheist. I can define my rules the way I want. Does this mean I am right? It's easy to say that (ln(x+3)+3xLn(x^3+5)/exp(3x^2+4))=1 but does this mean that the result is correct?
You see, logically speaking, there are more evidences for the existance of a God than the opposite. It's just inconvenient for most people to accept a system that tells them they are wrong (marketers know this better than anybody else).
Lets forget for a moment the 3 religions.
Question 1: What is a god per definition?
A: A god is anything you believe in.
This is the first argument against atheists. How?
The medecine says: The existance of a need is the proof of the existance of something that can satisfy it while benefiting the body.
Ex: Hunger means that there is food that would do you well.(You could eat something poisonous that will make you feel well but kill you afterwards).
Humans need to believe in something. Even atheists believe in something. They believe that there is no god. That's like a poisonous food you eat. You will feel full but die afterwards.
2- Our logic makes us believe there is a creator all the time. We just try not to listen to it when it comes to us.
Explanation: When you see a Ferrari or a Lamborgini, you think instinctively at how savvy the constructors must be. You don't say "Unbelievable what the chance can make?". But when it comes to us, humans, you think it's more logical to think it's the chance that created us although we are WAAAAYYYY more complex than a mere car.
BTW, Darwinism is no theory if you want to judge it strictly according to the definition of a theory.
I still have a lot of evidence but I think this good for a start. I am quite tired of writing for now.
Take care for now.
My Story:
I was born on an Island in the south east of Tunisia. It's called Djerba. I belonged to a certain undergroup of Islam that is REALLY far from what I am now. The group I belonged to considered any muslim who commits a capital sin to be a non-muslim who will end in Hell(Djahennam). I used to pray way differently and I thought it was the right way. 80% of the inhabitants of that island belong to this group and are influencial and rich. So there were some arrogance involved in my belief. 17% belonged to another group and the rest were Jews living on the island since 2000 years or so.
Side note: We have never had problems with them.
Anyways... I had to leave the island to continue my studies at the university. I came to Germany. In the first year, I didn't bother asking myself questions about my faith but then, I started looking around me. 90% of the muslims I encountered prayed differently (the movements). So I asked myself: What makes you so sure that you are right and others are wrong? Heck, what makes you sure muslims are right and jews or christians are wrong?
You might as why am I not considering Buddists, Taoists or atheism.
A: The 3 religions are the only ones claiming to worship a higher being, not another human, a rock or a cow (no offense, that's my reasoning). Why would I have to worship something/someone equal or inferior to me? Atheism is no alternative for me for logical reasons I will explain later.
Q: How could I weed out Christianism and Judaism?
A: Each one of the 3 religions claims to have the word of god in their hands. To be able to find out who is right, I would have to work on the texts to verify of these are really the words of God and here comes the first problem with Christianism and Judaism:
The language Moses spoke was ancient Egyptian and Jesus spoke Aramean. Any historian would confirm this fact. It would be absurd for a prophet (even if he is the son of god) to talk to people in a language they don't understand. Lastly, he is there to warn them.
So, the first prequisite would be to at least give me access to the source... There is no version of the bible or the Torah in these languages. If you find them, I would be glad to consider my choice once again. If you say that having translations is enough, I will have to disagree at least to calling it the word of god. That's why muslim call only the quran in arabic the word of god. Anything else is an approximate translation of the meanings of quran. A 1-to-1 translation from one language to another is impossible and especially from a language similar to arabic(aramean and arabic have the same origin and are very different in the way words are built from greek for example) to another one.
We muslims claim the quran to be the work of god, who is btw different from the god christians and jews worship. Why? Because he has different characteristics. Jews said that God is poor and they are rich. They said he fought with Jacob and lost. Christians said he's got a son. They said he eats and drinks (since Jesus is God). We say that God is the prefection. Eating is a sign of imperfection, having a son is one too.
To make a long story short about the choice of the group I now belong to, I had to get back to the sources and to learn a science that only muslims developed called the science of tradition, used to authenticate texts spoken by the prophet and his companions. In the end, I don't do anything if I don't know the exact evidence for it from the original texts which btw can be interpreted according to strict rules, so that I can claim to be able to prove that everything I do is logical.
Atheism and Logic:
Before I go ahead, I want to illustrate a point a lot of people don't really bother to think about. That is honesty.
Before I started diving into this whole matter I swore to myself I would be honest to myself and I would follow whatever route I find to be right no matter how inconvenient it can be for me. It's about doing what is right and not what is easier.
It's easy to say I am atheist. I can define my rules the way I want. Does this mean I am right? It's easy to say that (ln(x+3)+3xLn(x^3+5)/exp(3x^2+4))=1 but does this mean that the result is correct?
You see, logically speaking, there are more evidences for the existance of a God than the opposite. It's just inconvenient for most people to accept a system that tells them they are wrong (marketers know this better than anybody else).
Lets forget for a moment the 3 religions.
Question 1: What is a god per definition?
A: A god is anything you believe in.
This is the first argument against atheists. How?
The medecine says: The existance of a need is the proof of the existance of something that can satisfy it while benefiting the body.
Ex: Hunger means that there is food that would do you well.(You could eat something poisonous that will make you feel well but kill you afterwards).
Humans need to believe in something. Even atheists believe in something. They believe that there is no god. That's like a poisonous food you eat. You will feel full but die afterwards.
2- Our logic makes us believe there is a creator all the time. We just try not to listen to it when it comes to us.
Explanation: When you see a Ferrari or a Lamborgini, you think instinctively at how savvy the constructors must be. You don't say "Unbelievable what the chance can make?". But when it comes to us, humans, you think it's more logical to think it's the chance that created us although we are WAAAAYYYY more complex than a mere car.
BTW, Darwinism is no theory if you want to judge it strictly according to the definition of a theory.
I still have a lot of evidence but I think this good for a start. I am quite tired of writing for now.
Take care for now.
I have absolutely no problem with the concept of God - which is where I differ from traditional atheists. What I have a problem is the indoctrination of a man-made set of religious books that claim to know the specifics of our creator (if one exists, which I think is likely). A book that dishes out rules and ways to live, how to get to heaven and how to avoid hell. It's rubbish and I don't believe in a single word, even if some of it is true by nature of good will and morals.
The God I believe in would be smart enough to not entrust man in carrying out His word.