Anarchist Stuff

The burden is on you to show that a claim to property is just. Just taking it doesn't make it right, and doesn't make it okay to deny others access to it. You haven't shown why you think it is just.
I think I have done that. Property allows us to delineate boundaries such that we can avoid, or resolve conflicts peacefully. Without a notion of mine and thine, we would constantly be conflicting with one another.

It's a system. I think it has a lot of positive benefits, like it leads to rational economic outcomes, it fosters peace and responsibility.

If you have a better system, I am for it. But the premise upon which I accept property as valid, is its utility and inherent fairness.

I happen to think conditional property ownership is probably just on the grounds that it's generally better for people.
I don't understand what conditional property ownership is.

That's not a good argument, either. What risk do cows or pigs pose to you?
So you're only arguing for cow and pig rights? You're willing to abandon rights for bears and lions?

That which promotes the well-being of the largest number of people. Maximizes utility, say.
Right, that's a consequentialist position, and I have real issues with consequentialism because it is circular.

The only way you can calculate utility is to have free exchange and a price system. Otherwise, it's really just someone, or someones perception of what is good for everyone.

The idea of the "greater good" is a collectivist concept which is great rhetoric, but it doesn't stand the test of empirical or logical scrutiny. I'm not attacking you for it, but I'd like you to really think over how you could possibly know what maximum utility is, since value is intrapersonal (individual) and subjective.

I think you have the question backwards. The question should be, who has the right to claim property? And I would answer, anyone has the right to claim anything, but no one has to accept that claim. If you want the claim recognized, you'll need to accept the conditions established by the society you live in.
But what if the society is a private property society. You're ok with that?
 


G, did you ever provide a coherent response to why social contracts are illegitimate?

Was it simply that you didn't consent to them?
 
Contract Definition via Wikipedia
A contract is an agreement entered into voluntarily by two parties or more with the intention of creating a legal obligation, which may have elements in writing, though contracts can be made orally.

Social Contract Definition via Wikipedia
Social contract arguments typically posit that individuals have consented, either explicitly or tacitly, to surrender some of their freedoms and submit to the authority of the ruler or magistrate (or to the decision of a majority), in exchange for protection of their remaining rights

Definition of "Tacit" = "Understood or implied without being stated."

I have never tacitly agreed to surrender some of my freedoms by submitting to any authority.
 
Contract Definition via Wikipedia


Social Contract Definition via Wikipedia


Definition of "Tacit" = "Understood or implied without being stated."

I have never tacitly agreed to surrender some of my freedoms by submitting to any authority.

Great answer. The two terms can be really confusing for a lot of people.
 
Contract Definition via Wikipedia

Social Contract Definition via Wikipedia

Definition of "Tacit" = "Understood or implied without being stated."

I have never tacitly agreed to surrender some of my freedoms by submitting to any authority.

I'm wondering how that ties into one's parents naming them. Do infants tacitly consent to their own names? Are parents in violation for giving their children names that are not explicitly consented to?

How does that work given this idea of consent?

I'm still looking for some material, anything that does not presume from the get-go that government is evil. I'd like to come to that conclusion with evidence, not just because some ideologue tells me so.

I think he asked for proof that a social contract exists.

Bump!

Tacit expectations count as evidence.

If you sit next to someone and get stabbed, do you get upset at the person for violating a tacit social contract, or do you acknowledge that there was no agreement and your bodily integrity is fair game?
 
I'm wondering how that ties into one's parents naming them.
It doesn't at all.

I'm wondering how that ties into one's parents naming them. Do infants tacitly consent to their own names? Are parents in violation for giving their children names that are not explicitly consented to?
You realize people can change their names, and a name is just a label. Just because you give something a name, say, I start calling your Pinnochio Stiltskin, doesn't mean that's your name, the name you answer to, the name others will use, or the name you want to use.

I mean, are you trolling or what?

I'm still looking for some material, anything that does not presume from the get-go that government is evil.
We don't presume government is evil, we can and have proven it repeatedly.

The best that [sic] critics have been able to come back with, is that the evil is necessary.

I'd like to come to that conclusion with evidence, not just because some ideologue tells me so.
What is stopping you? There is a ton of discussion here on the topic, plenty of people to discuss it with, and lots of sources and materials presented.

As I tried to say to Emp, it's your job to do the research. You've got people here willing to assist, but if you refuse to put in the legwork, how can you expect to discover anything new?

If you sit next to someone and get stabbed, do you get upset at the person for violating a tacit social contract, or do you acknowledge that there was no agreement and your bodily integrity is fair game?
That's not a social contract. That's ethics which is a social norm. Social norms != social contracts. A social contract is a very specific idea, and I think you are applying it to other ideas.

If someone stabs me under common law, they are fair game unless they make restitution.

If they choose not to make restitution, they are out-law (outlaw) and they can be hunted like a dog.

Ethics are reciprocal and universal. Where an ethical relationship cannot exist (see above conversation with Pseudo Nym re: animals) then there cannot be expectations of ethical behavior.

I think you've got 2 issues in this discussion.

1. You're misusing terms to say what you want to say. Indeed, this is why I asked you to define terms, so you could be explicit and clear. If we're not speaking the same language, it's going to be very hard to have a productive discussion.

2. After our PM where you claimed that you rejected facts that lead to outcomes you didn't like, I am not sure what to expect going forward. If you believe government is good, you will reject any evidence, regardless of how solid or conclusive it is (see my last post in this thread to Kiopa_Matt).

I'd love to argue for anarchy, but if the deck is stacked against me like this, it's probably not worth my time.

If you'd like to discuss this, I'd like to take a different approach. A basic Socratic style inquiry because people randomly challenging anarchism without laying out the premises has wasted a lot of time. It will only take a handful of short posts for me to illustrate my position.

Do you believe that some actions are right, and some actions are wrong?
 
But there is no modern left anarchist movement. It would barely exist as an idea if you remove angry young people under the age of 25 going through an awkward phase.

Voluntarism and Ancap are the current state of anarchism. They are where all of the literature, organization, ideas and projects happen.

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Two-Cheers-Anarchism-Autonomy-Meaningful/dp/0691155291/]Two Cheers for Anarchism: Six Easy Pieces on Autonomy, Dignity, and Meaningful Work and Play: James C. Scott: 9780691155296: Amazon.com: Books[/ame] - that book came out last month and is currently #2 in Amazon's anarchism category. Look at many of the other books in their rankings.

Here's David Graeber on national television :

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVDkkOAOtV0]A Conversation With Anarchist David Graeber - YouTube[/ame]


Chomsky is of course all over the place and has over 150 books. People such as John Zerzan also have books and get featured in documentaries, etc.

Anarchist Studies

Anarchist Studies is an inter-disciplinary journal of scholarly research into the history, culture and theory of anarchism, edited by Ruth Kinna. (author of Anarchism: A Beginner's Guide)


Contemporary anarchism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
It doesn't at all.

You realize people can change their names, and a name is just a label. Just because you give something a name, say, I start calling your Pinnochio Stiltskin, doesn't mean that's your name, the name you answer to, the name others will use, or the name you want to use.

I mean, are you trolling or what?

Who are you to tell someone how important their name is? What a name represents is up to the individual person, not to you.

We don't presume government is evil, we can and have proven it repeatedly.

The best that [sic] critics have been able to come back with, is that the evil is necessary.

Who is "we"? And how have you proven it? How do you quantify this notion of good and evil and make any kind of comparative analysis?

What is stopping you? There is a ton of discussion here on the topic, plenty of people to discuss it with, and lots of sources and materials presented.

As I tried to say to Emp, it's your job to do the research. You've got people here willing to assist, but if you refuse to put in the legwork, how can you expect to discover anything new?

That's not a social contract. That's ethics which is a social norm. Social norms != social contracts. A social contract is a very specific idea, and I think you are applying it to other ideas.

If someone stabs me under common law, they are fair game unless they make restitution.

If they choose not to make restitution, they are out-law (outlaw) and they can be hunted like a dog.

Ethics are reciprocal and universal. Where an ethical relationship cannot exist (see above conversation with Pseudo Nym re: animals) then there cannot be expectations of ethical behavior.

I see. We're getting somewhere here.

Why should an anarchist believe that ethics exist? I think you yourself admitted you ascribe to Hume's Law (is/ought problem). Doesn't this render the concept of ethics meaningless, let alone the power of law to compel?

I think you've got 2 issues in this discussion.

1. You're misusing terms to say what you want to say. Indeed, this is why I asked you to define terms, so you could be explicit and clear. If we're not speaking the same language, it's going to be very hard to have a productive discussion.

2. After our PM where you claimed that you rejected facts that lead to outcomes you didn't like, I am not sure what to expect going forward. If you believe government is good, you will reject any evidence, regardless of how solid or conclusive it is (see my last post in this thread to Kiopa_Matt).

I'd love to argue for anarchy, but if the deck is stacked against me like this, it's probably not worth my time.

If you'd like to discuss this, I'd like to take a different approach. A basic Socratic style inquiry because people randomly challenging anarchism without laying out the premises has wasted a lot of time. It will only take a handful of short posts for me to illustrate my position.

Do you believe that some actions are right, and some actions are wrong?

I don't recall rejecting "rejecting facts that lead to outcomes I didn't like". Are you talking about the moral nihilism of your position on Hume?

For the record I'm ambivalent on the notion of government. I acknowledge the bad, but I also acknowledge the good. Doesn't that make me balanced on the issue?

Or do I have to acknowledge the bad and rationalize away the good?
 
Who are you to tell someone how important their name is? What a name represents is up to the individual person, not to you.
You brought up names, not me. Stop being a Mary.

Who is "we"? And how have you proven it? How do you quantify this notion of good and evil and make any kind of comparative analysis?
Do you believe there are actions which are good, and actions which are evil?

You are now the 4th person I have asked, and the 4th person who will not answer this very simple question. It's very interesting to me. I actually want to see how many people will avoid it, while continuing to debate the topic.

Why should an anarchist believe that ethics exist?
Ethics is a label for an idea. If you believe consciousness exists, then you have to believe that ethics can exist.

I think you yourself admitted you ascribe to Hume's Law (is/ought problem). Doesn't this render the concept of ethics meaningless, let alone the power of law to compel?
I don't ascribe to it. It's a valid argument.

And no, it doesn't render ethics meaningless. Law is irrelevant to this conversation.

I don't recall rejecting "rejecting facts that lead to outcomes I didn't like". Are you talking about the moral nihilism of your position on Hume?
You said you couldn't accept Hume's argument as true because you believe it leads to moral nihilism. You were not arguing the validity of his position, you were arguing the consequences of his position.

It would be like me saying that gravity isn't true, because I don't like falling.

In other words, nonsense.

For the record I'm ambivalent on the notion of government. I acknowledge the bad, but I also acknowledge the good. Doesn't that make me balanced on the issue?
Why is balance good?

Or do I have to acknowledge the bad and rationalize away the good?
Why can't you just be for good and against bad?

Are you balanced on rape? Are you balanced on killing children? Are you balanced on people stealing from you?

As I said, I will only engage in a simple socratic discourse going forward, otherwise, I am going to go back to posting materials on anarchism to this thread. If you're up for that, great. If you want to continue this sort of discussion bring it to me by PM. I am almost 100% certain no one wants to read me trying to post to you. I barely want to read me posting to you.
 
Oh look, Guerilla is being immature again.
Here is something for your butthurt

I5N8I.jpg
 
Nice. Embedding. Really interesting video.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TO7-GBRx1xM]Why We Fight (A Film By Eugene Jarecki) (480p) (cc) - YouTube[/ame]
 
JRR Tolkein

"My political opinions lean more and more to Anarchy (philosophically understood, meaning the abolition of control not whiskered men with bombs) – or to ‘unconstitutional’ Monarchy. I would arrest anybody who uses the word State (in any sense other than the inanimate real of England and its inhabitants, a thing that has neither power, rights nor mind); and after a chance of recantation, execute them if they remained obstinate! If we could go back to personal names, it would do a lot of good.

Government is an abstract noun meaning the art and process of governing and it should be an offence to write it with a capital G or so to refer to people … The most improper job of any many, even saints (who at any rate were at least unwilling to take it on), is bossing other men. Not one in a million is fit for it, and least of all those who seek the opportunity …"