Bitcoin is not market money

Gold sovereigns are legal tender in the UK. Australian Nuggets are legal tender in Australia.
That's no argument... Any coin made of gold is no longer practical for use anymore at face value once the price of gold itself goes up after printing... It CAN be used still, of course, but doing so is plain stupid.

The varying price of the commodity makes the currency turn into a commodity again. This is another problem that bitcoin solves by simple ease of division. (i.e. it's easier to split digital currency into fragments than it is to split a gold coin into fragments.)


I hope it flourishes and stabilizes so that the underground drug and assassination markets can do the same, those guys never catch a break.
You have to break a few eggs to make a cake.

So some assassins and other baddies will have an easier time accepting cash. (It's doubtful they can't accept any right now, so it's not like BTC will invent many more baddies.)

This is a small price to pay for everyones' freedom.
 


You have to break a few eggs to make a cake.

So some assassins and other baddies will have an easier time accepting cash. (It's doubtful they can't accept any right now, so it's not like BTC will invent many more baddies.)

This is a small price to pay for everyones' freedom.

I fully agree- while several large "criminal" marketplaces run solely on BTC, this is no reason to denounce the currency (I don't think anyone can seriously make that argument, the biggest and baddest guys don't bother with BTC, just a few small fries selling shrooms on the internet, nothin' wrong with that).

However, I'm curious to see where bitcoins circulate the most. I haven't seen any legitimate online stores/marketplaces/vendors that take bitcoins as of yet. The only things that I've seen BTC used for is investments/mining and black market stuff. While I personally don't see a problem with this (how boring would the world be without the counter cultures?), in order for BTC to stay afloat it needs to broaden it's horizons- and fast.
 
BTC = pokemon cards/beanie babies/baseball cards/etc

All of the above have some sort of value that other people who are interested in those markets have assigned but to me all of those things are worthless because I can't use a baseball card to pay for my gas, a stuffed animal won't get me any groceries, and I think it's safe to say Chase won't accept my accumulated CPU cycles as a deposit. Sure I could try to sell them but there isn't much liquidity, I'd have an easier time moving in and out of gold, silver, and even Chinese Yuans than I would any of the above.
 
However, I'm curious to see where bitcoins circulate the most. I haven't seen any legitimate online stores/marketplaces/vendors that take bitcoins as of yet.
I'm sure shady stuff like drugs are the #1 use so far, but I am also sure that a growing %age is investment, like that post mentioned above.

As for who Takes bitcoin, the list is GINORMOUS:

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade

(Note that Products or services illegal in US or Japan are removed immediately)

...I have no idea how up-to-date this list is, but I do know that the vendors here on WF who take Bitcoin aren't on it so I have to assume it's nowhere near complete.

SO.... How many vendors have to take it before it has "Caught on?" That's the real question...
 
That's no argument... Any coin made of gold is no longer practical for use anymore at face value once the price of gold itself goes up after printing... It CAN be used still, of course, but doing so is plain stupid.

Did I said something about practicality? No. How about you learn to debate and lay off the fallacies.

I merely replied to britfag Joe that said "Find me a shop that accepts payment by gold, and I'll call it a currency." (you, lukefag, concurred).

Every shop in the UK has to accept gold sovereigns (with a minimum weight of 7.94 grams) since they're legal tender. Similar rules apply in Australia for Australian nuggets.
 
Did I said something about practicality? No. How about you learn to debate and lay off the fallacies.

I merely replied to britfag Joe that said "Find me a shop that accepts payment by gold, and I'll call it a currency." (you, lukefag, concurred).
In that case thank you for adding nothing to the debate... Since your input wasn't intended as any form of evidence against Bitcoin then I humbly apologize for my defense against your totally non-related comment.
 
Every shop in the UK has to accept gold sovereigns (with a minimum weight of 7.94 grams) since they're legal tender. Similar rules apply in Australia for Australian nuggets.
That's a common belief held by many, but actually, that's wrong. Shops don't have to accept anything as payment, even if they're legal tender. For example, Scottish notes are legal tender, but many shops don't accept them. It's the same with £50 notes. It's up to the shop. If a shop wants to only accept payment in cattle, they're perfectly entitled to.
 
That's a common belief held by many, but actually, that's wrong. Shops don't have to accept anything as payment, even if they're legal tender. For example, Scottish notes are legal tender, but many shops don't accept them. It's the same with £50 notes. It's up to the shop. If a shop wants to only accept payment in cattle, they're perfectly entitled to.
Can't edit now.

Turns out Scottish notes aren't technically legal tender. The point still stands in regards to £50 notes though.
 
Did I said something about practicality? No. How about you learn to debate and lay off the fallacies.

I merely replied to britfag Joe that said "Find me a shop that accepts payment by gold, and I'll call it a currency." (you, lukefag, concurred).

Every shop in the UK has to accept gold sovereigns (with a minimum weight of 7.94 grams) since they're legal tender. Similar rules apply in Australia for Australian nuggets.

Calling people fags is not an argument, bro.

That being said, nobody is really tackling the Mises assertions on currency. That's what you guys should be talking about.

Here's what I don't get- How the hell are you gonna make sure you're not gonna get hacked/robbed/scammed/phished/tricked out of all your money? No regulations bro. The place is like the wild west out there.
 
That's a common belief held by many, but actually, that's wrong. Shops don't have to accept anything as payment, even if they're legal tender.

Yes, you're right (for both the UK and Australia), my mistake. The thing is that the definition of "legal tender" varies. In France, Portugal, Germany and Macau, as an example, people can't refuse payment in legal tender (with some exceptions).

Calling people fags is not an argument, bro.

Don't worry, my pseudo-insults and my arguments are complete different entities.
 
...nobody is really tackling the Mises assertions on currency. That's what you guys should be talking about.
Agreed. That's the crux of this issue, and I believe I've stated my theory on how Currency may allow a new form of commodity now that there is an internet. -Just waiting for someone to prove me wrong.


Here's what I don't get- How the hell are you gonna make sure you're not gonna get hacked/robbed/scammed/phished/tricked out of all your money? No regulations bro. The place is like the wild west out there.
There are of course hardware solutions to help like keeping your BTC on a flash drive not connected to anything instead of on the PC itself... But true, they aren't fully 100% safe from theft.

Private enterprises will pop-up and fill the void, IMHO. Think insurance. Instead of an FDIC, perhaps a privately-run BTCIC could happen, and you're only covered if you pay into it. (Remember, no banks.)

Of course the problem that any BTCIC would have now is they are an easy target for a CIA to erase. So that can only happen after enough people adopt BTC as it is now and pretty much overthrow our world leaders through using it first.
 
Here's what I don't get- How the hell are you gonna make sure you're not gonna get hacked/robbed/scammed/phished/tricked out of all your money?
Isn't that what the government is doing now?

The answer is the same. Competition and the enforcement of contracts/property rights.

No regulations bro. The place is like the wild west out there.
An American Experiment in Anarcho- Capitalism: The Not So Wild, Wild West by Terry Anderson and P.J. Hill
 
Sounds like broken logic if people find value in superior trading units.
1. Assert own position superior.
2. ???
3. Win argument?

Not yet. They'll have to stabilize, this is granted. But if BTC in & of itself is found to have value by the masses, then they would be indeed by a commodity, like gold.

It's really all about if it's going to catch on or not. If it does not, you're right. If it does, you're dead wrong. Because if everyone uses them and finds value in them, why wouldn't they be the best commodity in the world for use as a currency?
I don't think you understand what a commodity is.

Being money has nothing to do with popularity, and everything to do with the nature of the good being used as money. Bitcoins are not goods, because they have no other use, than as money.
 
1. Assert own position superior.
2. ???
3. Win argument?
Cute. But I have given this a lot of thought (at one point I had all my hardware picked out to buy a rig in fact... Oh so close!) and I can't see how freedom-seekers the world over could allow a future to happen WITHOUT a peer-to-peer, digital, anonymous currency. It's too important.


I don't think you understand what a commodity is.
Because of my respect for you G, I went and looked in 4 different locations today for definitions of that word, to see if I'm overlooking any significant meaning. The majority of the (many) definitions I found are indifferent to this argument. The one meaning that bitcoin cannot meet in order to be a commodity is the requirement of it being tangible.

It appears to be 100% correct that all commodities have always been tangible before. Nowhere can I find evidence to support any argument otherwise.

So allow me to make it here: :angrysoapbox_sml:

Commodities have been around since the stone ages. Beads, shells, gold, all previous commodities were necessarily produced with equality the world over, so they could be traded as equal units everywhere. Tangibility was something we HAD to have in that world. There was no internet yet.

But ever since AD 1991 or so when people started migrating their "lives" online, tangibility has become less important to our lives. More of our time is spent in a new plane of existence where NOTHING is tangible, just a bunch of 1s and 0s, but yet these digital "items" are IMPORTANT to us.

Whereas food {tangible} was important to us enough to trade some gold for before, Information {not tangible} is now important enough for us to do so. And do so we do. Very much so. How much has Clickbank pulled in to date?

Things have simply changed. And it continues changing in the new direction at an increased rate, as witnessed by the fact that people are now regularly leaving their freaking facebook profiles in their wills.

I assert that tangibility is no longer a hard requirement for commodities, at least in an online environment.

If something online, be it a backlink from a PR9 blog, a Bitcoin, or a photograph or other chunk of content has a certain VALUE to people the world over, then that thing should now be officially up for consideration as a commodity!

Of course the other defining factors of commodities should & would still apply. A backlink, even if from a PR9 wordpress blog, will obviously have a different value to different people and would fail the commodity requirements. Content, too, would fail the requirement as one person's trash is another person's treasure. Photos are included in that because they are just a form of content.

So Bitcoin is the first & only thing that I personally have seen that is designed to have the SAME VALUE to everyone online. If you know of another I'm all ears, but short of that we now have our first contender.

A way to facilitate this concept would be to create a new form of tangibility that applies to data, online or off. Instead of defining it by the perception of touch, perhaps this new form of tangibility could revolve around a perception of acquisition.

In this case to claim that an item is 'digitally tangible,' you'd only have to have it in your possession. (Even if just on a floppy disk or twitter stream.) If the fact that data can be reproduced destroys that tangibility in your mind, then perhaps this concept could only apply to digital items that cannot be reproduced.

Bitcoin, again, would obviously be digitally tangible in either case, and in doing so would still fulfill every requirement of being a commodity.


Sometimes we have to think about the reasons for the existing criteria. In this case, tangibility is no longer adequate. The world has simply changed. (Or more accurately, there is now a whole new world with a different set of natural laws!)
 
This whole bitcoin thing is obnoxious and dumb.
To think BTC is dumb is to be dumb yourself. Have you read up on how deep and elegant the system is? Can you honestly say you understand everything about it?

why would anyone trust currency created by hackers in the first place?
Perhaps because:

A. It is open source, &

B. Every single BTC transaction is COMPLETELY KNOWN TO ALL. (Just no identities.)

If only governments released this much info on their currencies...!
 
I'm sure shady stuff like drugs are the #1 use so far, but I am also sure that a growing %age is investment, like that post mentioned above.

As for who Takes bitcoin, the list is GINORMOUS:

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade

(Note that Products or services illegal in US or Japan are removed immediately)

...I have no idea how up-to-date this list is, but I do know that the vendors here on WF who take Bitcoin aren't on it so I have to assume it's nowhere near complete.

SO.... How many vendors have to take it before it has "Caught on?" That's the real question...


lol did you even look at that list? 90% of that list is a bunch of nobody vendors. AKA some guys who made e-commerce website AKA people at digital point AKA the people who use bitcoins that think "hey lets open up a e-commerce site for bitcoins in this niche.

I feel embarrassed for you because your actually using this list as if to say "a-ha! Look at all these websites who use bitcoins". guaranteed 90% of these sites don't even make more than a dollar a day. Let alone get more than 100 people to their site every month.

When a website like amazon picks up bitcoins then we can start talking.