Conspiracy Theories and Athiesm

Status
Not open for further replies.
Deliguy

Deliguy

New member
Sep 27, 2006
5,162
195
0
Oregon
I've been actually wanting to ask this question for a long time, but I didn't want to start another religion thread. Since the political threads are coming back..hehe why not :)

Since WF is mostly conspiracy theorists (that includes me) and athiests I was wondering what everyone thinks about the whole Book of Revelations thing which is basically the ultimate conspiracy theory.

For those that haven't familiarized themselves with it:
It's basically the last book of the bible (unless your mormon) compiled from the manuscripts from John The Apostle. Written shortly after Jesus was gone John claimed God came to him and described to him the "final days" before his second coming through very detailed visions and he carefully detailed it in a way that people of his time such as himself could only understand from it. It predicts some creepy shit that people of his time would have no way of understanding. Imagine trying to describe a piece of technology or climate change that wouldn't come around for another 1900 years. :)

Some Basic Rundowns (theres a lot so don't quote me on perfect accuracy):
He predicts Red Tides and Smog Moons (says the waters and the moon will turn to blood). Which is now a very common occurance due to our pollution, but wasn't imaginable back in his day.

He described a modern computer and the internet in great detail and called it "The Beast."

He gave an extremely complex math code using mathematics that didn't exist for another 1600 years and said you will know what it means when it is needed. It wasn't until the mainframe computer was invented that they were able to figure out the result was 666.

666 is a common sync code used in Internet and networking communications to make sure two computers can communicate on the same wait state timing.

He predicted RFID chips saying the "mark of the beast" will be implanted on peoples foreheads and left hands and they will not be able to buy/sell or have an identification in society without one. He also said doctors will implant babies with the mark of the beast upon their delivery. Some would also say he predicted debit and credit cards with that and even national ids, but thats kind of a stretch imo. He also briefly mentioned imprisonment for people who refused to have the mark.

He said there will be a one world government.

He said there will be a one world currency.

He said the beast will sit in the temple and curse God. The temple is now a museum with a full computer system.

He said earthquakes, hurricanes, floods and other natural disasters will become quite a bit more frequent.

The list goes on and on but you get the idea. I personally am a conspiracy theorist for most of the sensible ones (not really alien visitor type but more of the one world one currency government type). So does being an atheist nullify your belief in the book of revelations, or nostradomis type stuff or are they compatible? Do you think all the stuff he said will come true or is it just coincidences? Or do you think its more of a real out of this world vision that just got God thrown into it because ppl used to think every hallucination they had was from god?

I'm not just trolling on this one. I'm seriously curious.
 


Having come from a Cristian background and having studied most of the world religions, I would say that people paint their own picture with whatever is at hand at the time.


If the picture seems good enough or plausible to their minds they will continue to duplicate and propagate it.


It's interesting that you mention the Beast as being the internet. 25 years ago, in most Christian circles, the beast was deemed to be the Council of the United Nations. (LOL!! It's been upgraded!!)


I myself am an Atheist and I'm not easily fooled by the governments of the world's propaganda either.


The points you made are interesting, I do find myself pondering them from time to time. I never give them much weight though.



Atheist or believer, I see no reason why things like the Mayan Calendar or Nostradamus can't be pondered.


Here's a question to ponder, could those things have really been predictions? Or is it just that humans have been thinking on these things for so long that subconsciously, or even consciously for some, we have created the circumstances of the predictions? Had these earlier "visions/foretellings" not been around would the world be the same as it is now. Might these things have been the architects of their own predictions by way of transference?


As an example of this, look at Star Trek for instance. It was created and aired for only one season back in the late 1960's yet look at what it showed us back then.

1.) A small square plastic disk that held data and was put into a computer for storage and retrieval.

2.) They had 3 sided video conferencing monitors.

3.) Their communicators were palm sized flip open devises.


This is just a short list of items from that show and they did not exist in our real world at the time. Look around now and they are common place or have even been surpassed. Would we have cell phones, video conferencing, and removable data storage this soon without that show having planted the seed of their creation into the minds of the people who watched that show?


Thanks for the thread Deliguy, "I" don't see how this should be anymore disruptive than anything else here in the shooting the shit forum.



Sincerely,

MT
 
^thats an excellent point and star trek is a great example.
I remember as a kid reading in popular science about how big research companies were using star trek as a model for trying to develop new technology.

A possibility of this forward imaging from the book of revelations was when he was talking about future militaries. Back in those days they had mildly armored horses and I'm sure had a lot of imagination of eventually creating war machines which wouldn't really come around until a few centuries before Da Vinci's day 1500 years later.. So when he described "giant iron locusts" being controlled by people crawling across the land causing destruction, while many would consider that a "prediction" for tanks and modern war machines it may have been what people of his day were picturing of the future of warfare. Kind of like we imagine a bunch of robots with lasers. However as tough as it is for us now to imagine stuff 10 or even 100 years into the future. I think John went a bit further touching on stuff that is on the brink of happening almost 2,000 years from his time. An electronic currency would be such an example. Volcanoes when he was describing the 6th seal, which he would have never seen or heard of, would be another.

You can easily pick apart certain items, such as one world government. He was in a major era and history of conquest so that was more than imaginable it was nearly expected. Yet others aren't so much such as the moon turning to blood. Which in our era we see it so often we don't think twice about it. It's just taken for granted. Back then that would of been nothing short of an act of a very angry God.

I think even if you're an athiest; You should read the book of revelations. It's actually quite amazing and perceptive and if you can weed through the God will do this, and God will do that you will probably enjoy it. It's very old world sci fi.
 
Last edited:
Deliguy said:
^thats an excellent point and star trek is a great example.
I remember as a kid reading in popular science about how big research companies were using star trek as a model for trying to develop new technology.

A possibility of this forward imaging from the book of revelations was when he was talking about future militaries. Back in those days they had mildly armored horses and I'm sure had a lot of imagination of eventually creating war machines which wouldn't really come around until a few centuries before Da Vinci's day 1500 years later.. So when he described "giant iron locusts" being controlled by people crawling across the land causing destruction, while many would consider that a "prediction" for tanks and modern war machines it may have been what people of his day were picturing of the future of warfare. Kind of like we imagine a bunch of robots with lasers. However as tough as it is for us now to imagine stuff 10 or even 100 years into the future. I think John went a bit further touching on stuff that is on the brink of happening almost 2,000 years from his time. An electronic currency would be such an example. Volcanoes when he was describing the 6th seal, which he would have never seen or heard of, would be another.

You can easily pick apart certain items, such as one world government. He was in a major era and history of conquest so that was more than imaginable it was nearly expected. Yet others aren't so much such as the moon turning to blood. Which in our era we see it so often we don't think twice about it. It's just taken for granted. Back then that would of been nothing short of an act of a very angry God.

I think even if you're an athiest; You should read the book of revelations. It's actually quite amazing and perceptive and if you can weed through the God will do this, and God will do that you will probably enjoy it. It's very old world sci fi.
Click to expand...

@Deliguy - do you mind if I ask: are you an atheist, agnostic or believer?

Just curious - totally don't care either way. We just had an interesting conversation about this over at PF, it was quite fun actually (if you can imagine a conversation about quantum physics and religion being fun, lol)
 
In some circles it has been hypothesized that John may have eaten some Shrooms or other vegetation that may have inadvertently induced some of his visions. Such as the Armored Locusts. He could have just seen a locust or grasshopper walking on the ground by him while in the depressive phase of the effects and imagined it being armored. Not a far stretch to tie this creature to war in his mind since during his time locust were a devastating scourge.



It's also been brought up that the Gospels are in conflict with each other. Like in one of the recounts of Jesus cursing a bush that had no fruit, it immediately withered and died. In another account by one of his apostles it states that he cursed the bush and in the morning as they passed it again he saw that it had withered and died.

Which is accurate, immediate or delayed? They both could be, seeing as how Jesus was said to have usually sent one of the men ahead of the group into a town to secure logging prior to entering the town/village. Maybe the apostle that saw the bush dead the next morning was heading into town with his back turned and just heard Jesus curse the bush. So it was not until the next morning that he saw the bush.

This is the problem with so many things from the past. It's so hard for them to maintain not only their congruity but the context in which they were done and said.

I've always felt that humans only really have about 100 years of past working knowledge to go by. Older than that and things start to get fuzzy.

To bad we don't have true DNA memory that would allow us to accurately draw on our past relatives experiences and knowledge like in the movie "The 5th Element." We do have some genetic predisposition to certain aspects of our being, but it is very rudimentary.


Sincerely,

MT
 
People confuse revealed religion with spirituality. You can believe in a higher power, without having to go through particular rituals or follow specific scriptures.

Monotheistic religion is the ultimate conspiracy theory. It's based on the premise that there is a supreme being no one can see, making decisions none of us can understand, decisions which none of us have the moral authority to question.

I don't mean that with any value attached to it. I'm somewhat agnostic. I don't claim to know one way or the other.

One world government is Babel. Democracy are the bricks used to build Babel. People are stones, not bricks. Bricks are equal and the same. People are different and diverse. Throughout history, whenever people have forgotten they are unique, that is when the premise of God is under the greatest challenge. Whether it is in today's secular democracy, scientific global bureaucracy or in socialist tyrannies. Those seeking power always try to challenge and circumvent the uniqueness of individuals.
 
Eli you should subscribe to my mom's favorite magazine "End Times" it's a trip and half.

As human beings we LOVE scary bed time stories (Hell, I'm a horror buff myself so I get it) There are alot of socio-anthropological reasons for this: us against them factors, fable like moral reasoning, fear as conditioning...ect

Revelations is the scariest. campfire ghost story. Ever.

(Oh and I'm pretty sure John The Apostle= schizophrenic)
 
guerilla said:
People confuse revealed religion with spirituality. You can believe in a higher power, without having to go through particular rituals or follow specific scriptures.

Monotheistic religion is the ultimate conspiracy theory. It's based on the premise that there is a supreme being no one can see, making decisions none of us can understand, decisions which none of us have the moral authority to question.

I don't mean that with any value attached to it. I'm somewhat agnostic. I don't claim to know one way or the other.

One world government is Babel. Democracy are the bricks used to build Babel. People are stones, not bricks. Bricks are equal and the same. People are different and diverse. Throughout history, whenever people have forgotten they are unique, that is when the premise of God is under the greatest challenge. Whether it is in today's secular democracy, scientific global bureaucracy or in socialist tyrannies. Those seeking power always try to challenge and circumvent the uniqueness of individuals.
Click to expand...

Right on! The greatest minds that have ever lived (Einstien, Hawkings to name only a few) believe in a greater power. It is fact that most legends from the past have some kind of truth to them. The Bible surely has some truth to it as well.

I would think that a true "thinker" would keep his mind open to all posiblities, even possibly some truths from the Bible. That's why I find it hard to even take athiest serious. Most are so closed minded to anything outside of the belief that anything to do with a higher spiratual power is nonsense. This closed mind thinking is a contradiction to what the atheist say they stand for.

As for the Book of Revelations, I find it very fascinating and have studied it to lengths. It is as accurate a description of what is and has been going on in the world as anything Nostridamus or Edgar Casey has ever written.
 
popeye said:
As for the Book of Revelations, I find it very fascinating and have studied it to lengths. It is as accurate a description of what is and has been going on in the world as anything Nostridamus or Edgar Casey has ever written.
Click to expand...


It's true. Evidence is everywhere you look.

fsm_beach.jpg
 
guerilla said:
People confuse revealed religion with spirituality. You can believe in a higher power, without having to go through particular rituals or follow specific scriptures.

Monotheistic religion is the ultimate conspiracy theory. It's based on the premise that there is a supreme being no one can see, making decisions none of us can understand, decisions which none of us have the moral authority to question.

I don't mean that with any value attached to it. I'm somewhat agnostic. I don't claim to know one way or the other.

One world government is Babel. Democracy are the bricks used to build Babel. People are stones, not bricks. Bricks are equal and the same. People are different and diverse. Throughout history, whenever people have forgotten they are unique, that is when the premise of God is under the greatest challenge. Whether it is in today's secular democracy, scientific global bureaucracy or in socialist tyrannies. Those seeking power always try to challenge and circumvent the uniqueness of individuals.
Click to expand...

It seems to me that religion by definition is a means to control a large group by a singularity or very small group.

Ask any of the past historical figures, or present leaders for that matter, who had/have power. It did not matter whether it was spiritual religion or political religion, it served the purpose of imposing an individual's or a small group's desires on a large mass of people.


Sincerely,

MT
 
it's all symbolism. and sloppy science. and societal structurizing. useful, but limiting.
and the real conspiracy is what they've left out of the bible.

teulchun-top1.jpg


beyond that -- my belief is that belief creates, and mass belief creates massively.
so you gotta be careful with what you believe. most don't.

you've got your hardcore bible thumpers who want to bring about those wonderful predictions in the book of revelations -- destroying humanity to save humanity. you've got your poisonous snake handlers protected by their faith in imaginary friends. you've got 12 year old kids ready and willing to spend 3 minutes cutting off a dude's head with a bowie knife because their beliefs say that man is unfit to live.

aside from snake handlers (who remarkably almost never get bitten, but that's another essay or three on intent and reality hacking) these are incredibly destructive beliefs based on misunderstood instructions.

and yes, it's a goddamn conspiracy.

nostradamus I don't know about. the skeptic consensus puts his stuff in the realm of cold reading, but since so many people believe that I'm gonna call bullshit and say he was a templar operative providing coded communications and instructions to move against the then-church-controlled state.

he did get king henry's death by jousting 100% right after all. maybe it was an order, not a prediction.

whoa. maybe the book of revelations is an order.
that's a friggin mind blow right there.

by the by, a higher power does not have to wear robes and sport a massive beard. that's my main issue with thiests, and athiests.

this goes for any 'absolute' truth that a belief structure may teach.
absolutely convinced they're absolutely right.
absolutely ridiculous.

but understandable.

anyway. smart money says whether or not end times predictions happen, is up to you. and you.
 
Religion was created as a way to control large amounts of weak people.

Not much has changed...
 
A smashing good read (damn I sound like an old english man).

Will head over to the forums in a bit; however 'the book of revelation' if we are going to go down the conspiracy route. There is also the theory that the 'current' book of revelations is in fact a watered down version of the original and that the original book of rev. had more well revelations and was different in many ways.

Though this future predicting in the 'holy books' is not a new phenomenon, I remember a discussion I had a few years back and an example was given:

'Imagine you are walking at night down a street, a lot of the street lights are not working so you see only a limited amount.
Now Imagine you see a shadow; what do you think that shadow is?'

The point being depending on the area different people would assume different things. An area with a high dog population would think dog, and if you were actually in that situation that presumption would be re-enforced by your subconscious to reassure your concious side.

Same logic can be applied to when part of an item looks like something, your brain is trying to make a link with what it sees/ perceives and what you know (your knowledge bank).

So when reading scriptures such as this your brain is making links with what you know in an attempt to rationalise (to an extent) and explain what you are reading.

Falling on to a another example, psychic readers; they 'work' because their phrases are vague enough that links can be made in you head so to explain the phrase.
'Falling in to some fortune' come mean yo get money, a promotion, luck whatever but if I say that to 10 people 9 of them will think ah yea I did fall in to some fortune recently.

Bottom line who know? Being brought up in a religious background I give credence that the books given to 'people of the book' are in fact true. (though bit more biased to the Quran being more accurate but that is another bigger can of worms)
 
popeye said:
I would think that a true "thinker" would keep his mind open to all posiblities, even possibly some truths from the Bible.
Click to expand...

You have GOT to be kidding me. This is the type of unfettered, unadulterated hypocrisy that makes left-leaning atheists despise religion, the bible, and all things Christian.

You make an unabashedly enlightened statement like that, yet you claim all liberals are "brain washed", Obama is the Anti-Christ and all other manner of close-mindedness.

When have you ever, ever, ever demonstrated on this forum that "I would think that a true 'thinker" would keep his mind open to ALL POSSIBILITES..."

When have you ever stepped back to entertain the "POSSIBILITY" that those who believe differently than you politically aren't "Brainwashed" (see you sig for evidence of this statement) but perhaps are simply interpreting the facts differently?

When have you ever demonstrated to any of your colleagues/pals/whatever on this forum that though you may have traditional/conservative values, you are generally open to entertaining - at least on a basic level - "ALL POSSIBILITIES".


I'd take atheism over your brand of Christianity ANY DAY - and this is someone who would most happily stand atop any mountain proclaiming her unquestionable love and belief in the First Cause - or as Einstein called him,
"The Old One..."

excuse my thread highjacking.......
 
It blows my mind that WickedFire, which is full of fairly smart people, actually believe this crap.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom