Conspiracy Theories and Athiesm

[Theorist]

P.s. PhilPaul,
Jesus was hated by the Jews because
1. He claimed God was his father "I do the works of my father..."
2. He claimed he was equal with God "I and the father are one."
3. He claimed he was God "Before Abraham was I AM."
4. He claimed to be the only way to the father "I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the father except by me."

And, as an aside, C.S. Lewis made an interesting argument:
--Jesus claimed to be God. There are 3 possibilities:
1. He was a liar (he knew he wasn't God)
2. He was a lunatic (he thought he was God but wasn't)
3. He was Lord (he was who he claimed to be)

 

[turbolapp]

Must suck living life day to day knowing that you are no different than the dog taking a shit on the lawn next door. Must suck knowing that your life really means shit and that your death is the absolute end to your existence.

Why must athiest see everything black and white?

Sucks to be you!

Heh. Scared Popeye? In my eyes, Death is peaceful. Looks like you're the one that's terrified. It's ok, don't let the logic in. You've kept it out for this long, I'm sure you can resist.

 

[Deliguy]

P.s. PhilPaul,
Jesus was hated by the Jews because
1. He claimed God was his father "I do the works of my father..."
2. He claimed he was equal with God "I and the father are one."
3. He claimed he was God "Before Abraham was I AM."
4. He claimed to be the only way to the father "I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the father except by me."

And, as an aside, C.S. Lewis made an interesting argument:
--Jesus claimed to be God. There are 3 possibilities:
1. He was a liar (he knew he wasn't God)
2. He was a lunatic (he thought he was God but wasn't)
3. He was Lord (he was who he claimed to be)

Close but not quite. The beef wasn't so much that he claimed to be the son of god (there were plenty of people in his day that had that claim). It was that he claimed to be the son of god and he consorted with fishermen, lepers, and the general poor. Back then it was a hierarchy of God's approval. They believed God chose kings and that they were God's favorite and under them were royalty and the priests and other elders of the church. Peasants and other poor folks were there because God chose them to be there because they were less holy. Lepars and cripples were the lowest of the low on the holy totem pole because they were sinners and God was punishing them. So they were certain that if God really sent his son to earth, his son would only consort with the people of royalty and the church, not the heathens sinner fishermen and diseased.

To have someone with such a large entourage getting so much attention was a slap to the face by God. So when they couldn't trick him into loosing his following and disproving himself they called for his death. Even Pilate didn't want him to die. It was the supposed elders of the church that were so threatened and wanted him gone so bad that they were willing to set a serial murderer free to get rid of him. Then while he was being crucified it was the same people he helped and healed and dedicated his life to that were throwing rocks, spitting and cheering for his death. That's how afraid and respectful they were to the organized church. I imagine it was probably pretty scary when he asked for their forgiveness and died then suddenly the sky went dark and earthquakes and lightening started dropping buildings around them.

Think about that next time you're in church and you hear them say, You should have good CHRISTIAN friends and avoid sinners and other people of different religions because they'll stray you from what God wants. Because its not what would Jesus do, its what Jesus DID and he did the exact opposite of that. If you're an agnostic and you're finding your beef is more with organized religion than anything. Dude Jesus AGREES with you. Don't let anyone tell you differently when they're handing you a flyer for a Sunday sermon.

And a hypothetical question for the athiests, if you were standing in front of Jesus Christ and you could ask him any questions you wanted as much as you wanted. Do you think you would be able to stump or trick him? I see a lot of bible verses before and after Jesus getting disputed and poked at. Is there anything Jesus Christ as a person said, in the thousands of quotes, hundreds of speeches and questions answered by him in the bible, that is in any way disputable, ill logical, or with all of our scientific advances of the last 2,000 years that has been found questionable? Seems to me if you wanted to disprove something the heart of the beast would be the place to look.

 

[evo190]

I'm seriously amazed you guys can debate shit for so long you have NO first hand knowledge about...

Jesus was just the acai berry of his time... the monks were AM... the church was Google adwords...

I would like for the Church to come clean on who was truly Jesus' (or whatever his real name was) mother. My guess is Cleopatra since the Egyptian pHo's considered themselves gods. It makes sense to create this "virgin Mary" character since Cleo was a huge slut bag.

 

[Theorist]

Close but not quite. The beef wasn't so much that he claimed to be the son of god (there were plenty of people in his day that had that claim). It was that he claimed to be the son of god and he consorted with fishermen, lepers, and the general poor. Back then it was a hierarchy of God's approval. They believed God chose kings and that they were God's favorite and under them were royalty and the preists and other elders of the church. Peasants and other poor folks were there because God chose them to be there because they were less holy. Lepars and cripples were the lowest of the low on the holy totem pole so because they were sinners and God was punishing them. So they were certain that if God really sent his son to earth, his son would only consort with the people of royalty and the church, not the heathens sinner fishermen and diseased.

To have someone with such a large entourage getting so much attention was a slap to the face by God. So when they couldn't trick him into loosing his following and disproving himself they called for his death. Even Pilate didn't want him to die. It was the supposed elders of the church that were so threatened and wanted him gone so bad that they were willing to set a serial murderer free to get rid of him. Then while he was being crucified it was the same people he helped and healed and dedicated his life to that were throwing rocks, spitting and cheering for his death. That's how afraid and respectful they were to the organized church. I imagine it was probably pretty scary when he asked for their forgiveness and died then suddenly the sky went dark and earthquakes and lightening started dropping buildings around them.

Think about that next time you're in church and you hear them say, You should have good CHRISTIAN friends and avoid sinners and other people of different religions because they'll stray you from what God wants. Because its not what would Jesus do, its what Jesus DID and he did the exact opposite of that.

And a hypothetical question for the athiests, if you were standing in front of Jesus Christ and you could ask him any questions you wanted as much as you wanted. Do you think you would be able to stump or trick him?

Everything you say here is pretty much true, as the Jews in power were threatened by the masses that followed him "the whole world is going after him" (particularly since he was healing many lifelong cripples, lepers, diseased, raising the dead, demonstrating by his actions that he was who he claimed to be). The one place I'd differ is that he did claim to be God and not just the son of God and that's what made them maddest and want to kill him:
BibleGateway.com - PassageLookup: John 8;
and
Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

 

[Deliguy]

Everything you say here is pretty much true, as the Jews in power were threatened by the masses that followed him "the whole world is going after him" (particularly since he was healing many lifelong cripples, lepers, diseased, raising the dead, demonstrating by his actions that he was who he claimed to be). The one place I'd differ is that he did claim to be God and not just the son of God and that's what made them maddest and want to kill him:
BibleGateway.com - PassageLookup: John 8;
and
Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

For the sake of friendly debate I think its interesting that you quote a mid chapter of john because it was late luke early john that the priests started conspiring against Jesus and late John where they were becoming successful. If you understand the time line (and i am not a qualified person to understand anything from the bible to a sound extent) it's the same people responsible for his crucifixion that initiated the public backlash. Back then a politician couldn't walk up and throw a stone at someone and call them a witch. They had to conspire with a few townsfolk and peers and get them to do it. They had to gather up a mob mentality so they didn't have to get their hands dirty. You don't go up to a peasant and say you should stone this guy because he claims to be the son of god yet he's healing your sinner friends instead of having dinner at my house. You say you should stone this guy because he's being blasphemous. They were just being good lil' sheeple.

 

[xentech]

ALL codes are created by a MIND. DNA is a code, therefore it was created by a mind. That is the central thesis. You are challenged to disprove that all codes come from a mind by providing a naturally occuring code. I can save you time--you will be unable to do so.

It is not up to me to prove it, it's been proven that all codes are created by a mind. That concept is supported by virtually all scientific literature since the 1960's!

Atheists believe there is no mind, that everything occurs by natural means. Since DNA is a code it is up to atheists to demonstrate a code that occurs naturally. Don't try to turn it around my friend, try to answer it.

I can't prove that code doesn't have to be created by a mind, much like you can't prove that it is. You are the one proposing that it is, so it is up to you to prove it, not me to prove otherwise. I'm not saying you're wrong, I don't know, but the burden of proof is on you . Either way this still isn't evidence to support God, end of story.

If you think your whole theory is proven then there shouldn't even be a debate, you should just show everyone all the scientific evidence which proves your theory as a whole. You're asking regular people to use advanced science to disprove your idea, and the only reason you are is because you know nobody here has the ability to do so. I'm not interested in your scientific debate, I would however be extremely interested in seeing some evidence of God's existence. If you have any, feel free to present it.

I would actually be interested in seeing you present your idea to some real scientists though, if you really think you have something here then maybe that's what you should do.

 

[turbolapp]

 

[erect]

...

Are you listening to anything happening here?

D' Eli Guy just laid it out for you and told you EXACTLY where to look if you want to disprove God and you're still bickering about DNA.

Literally MILLIONS of people throughout the past 2000 years have dedicated their life to studying everything about JC possible. There are records, stories, books, universities and countless other organizations with mountains of documentation about his life. I'm pretty certain if there were some errors in what he said it would have come out by now.

Denial is a powerful drug, isn't it?

I can't wait for your next reply saying the burden is on me to prove it.

 

[Theorist]

But I can prove that every known code WAS created by a mind.
You are using circular reasoning.
Every code known has been produced by a mind. DNA is a code. INDUCTIVE reasoning says it was therefore created by a mind.

I don't deny that a mind is behind all that exists. I believe there is. You believe there isn't.
That puts the burden of proof on you since DNA is a code.

What part of that don't you understand?

It does not prove God, but it does prove that DNA was created by a mind since all codes are created by a mind.

Get it yet?

I can't prove that code doesn't have to be created by a mind, much like you can't prove that it is. You are the one proposing that it is, so it is up to you to prove it, not me to prove otherwise. I'm not saying you're wrong, I don't know, but the burden of proof is on you . Either way this still isn't evidence to support God, end of story.

If you think your whole theory is proven then there shouldn't even be a debate, you should just show everyone all the scientific evidence which proves your theory as a whole. You're asking regular people to use advanced science to disprove your idea, and the only reason you are is because you know nobody here has the ability to do so. I'm not interested in your scientific debate, I would however be extremely interested in seeing some evidence of God's existence. If you have any, feel free to present it.

I would actually be interested in seeing you present your idea to some real scientists though, if you really think you have something here then maybe that's what you should do.

 

[xentech]

Are you listening to anything happening here?

Eli just laid it out for you and told you EXACTLY where to look if you want to disprove God and you're still bickering about DNA.

Literally MILLIONS of people throughout the past 2000 years have dedicated their life to studying everything about JC possible. There are records, stories, books, universities and countless other organizations with mountains of documentation about his life. I'm pretty certain if there were some errors in what he said it would have come out by now.

Denial is a powerful drug, isn't it?

I can't wait for your next reply saying the burden is on me to prove it.

Nope I didn't read it. And I don't care for disproving God, you can't. I just think it's funny that so many people argue for God when they can't prove it.

 

[xentech]

But I can prove that every known code WAS created by a mind.
You are using circular reasoning.
Every code known has been produced by a mind. DNA is a code. INDUCTIVE reasoning says it was therefore created by a mind.

I don't deny that a mind is behind all that exists. I believe there is. You believe there isn't.
That puts the burden of proof on you since DNA is a code.

What part of that don't you understand?

It does not prove God, but it does prove that DNA was created by a mind since all codes are created by a mind.

Get it yet?

Saying that all known codes are created by a mind doesn't prove that codes have to be created by a mind, they may well be, but that doesn't prove it.

You're saying it is, I'm saying I don't know, you're asking me to prove a position I don't hold. You, however, are the one proposing that it is, so you have to prove it. You can't just approach me saying 'all codes are created by a mind, prove me wrong'...

 

[Theorist]

sorry

The gospels are not in historical order. They are synoptic and present different viewpoints of the whole of Jesus' life. To make a statement like "late Luke, early John" like one follows the next is incorrect.
To state that Jews as people were not offended by Jesus' statements claiming to be God is equally wrong. That a mob mentality developed against Jesus is historical fact. To state that it was all contrived by politicians and the "regular folk" were just dumbasses being manipulated with no mind of their own cannot be supported by the historical documents.

For the sake of friendly debate I think its interesting that you quote a mid chapter of john because it was late luke early john that the priests started conspiring against Jesus and late John where they were becoming successful. If you understand the time line (and i am not a qualified person to understand anything from the bible to a sound extent) it's the same people responsible for his crucifixion that initiated the public backlash. Back then a politician couldn't walk up and throw a stone at someone and call them a witch. They had to conspire with a few townsfolk and peers and get them to do it. They had to gather up a mob mentality so they didn't have to get their hands dirty. You don't go up to a peasant and say you should stone this guy because he claims to be the son of god yet he's healing your sinner friends instead of having dinner at my house. You say you should stone this guy because he's being blasphemous. They were just being good lil' sheeple.

 

[Theorist]

I'm not the only one saying it is friend. You are in a tiny minority (perhaps alone) vs. all scientific literature if you say that codes could happen by chance. There is no evidence of this whatsoever. All known codes have been created by a mind. This is not high science and not particularly difficult to understand.
If you want to take a stand against all known science to state that a code could happen by chance (encoder---information---decoder--results), it is YOU who are going against everything known. I am in accord with it and therefore have nothing to prove. My assumption is order. Yours is order from disorder. That's a stretch, I'm asking you to defend it. Many have tried, all have failed.

It is a HUGE blow against atheism, and one for which frankly they have no answer other than to try to turn the argument around, which is transparent to any thinker with an open mind....

Saying that all known codes are created by a mind doesn't prove that codes have to be created by a mind, they may well be, but that doesn't prove it.

You're saying it is, I'm saying I don't know, you're asking me to prove a position I don't hold. You, however, are the one proposing that it is, so you have to prove it. You can't just approach me saying 'all codes are created by a mind, prove me wrong'...

 

[amanda11]

I thought everyone knew the Bible was written by a bunch of drunk guys on a Sunday evening and then they sold it as non-fiction.

 

[bb_wolfe]

I thought everyone knew the Bible was written by a bunch of drunk guys on a Sunday evening and then they sold it as non-fiction.

You're confused. This is the guy who did that:

 

[blueRAP]

I'm not the only one saying it is friend. You are in a tiny minority (perhaps alone) vs. all scientific literature if you say that codes could happen by chance. There is no evidence of this whatsoever. All known codes have been created by a mind. This is not high science and not particularly difficult to understand.
If you want to take a stand against all known science to state that a code could happen by chance (encoder---information---decoder--results), it is YOU who are going against everything known. I am in accord with it and therefore have nothing to prove. My assumption is order. Yours is order from disorder. That's a stretch, I'm asking you to defend it. Many have tried, all have failed.

It is a HUGE blow against atheism, and one for which frankly they have no answer other than to try to turn the argument around, which is transparent to any thinker with an open mind....

Wrong. Another misunderstanding of what science is about. It is NOT about things happening by chance. Science is here to EXPLAIN things we know to exist, with evidence. Science doesn't dwell into intelligent design because THERE'S NO EVIDENCE TO PROVE ITS EXISTENCE.

Science is not about assumptions of the supernatural. Its your business, your opinion, to assume there is a supernatural mind, be it God or a magical tapeworm, behind the codes. Show us some evidence of a creator directly influencing the codes (faith doesn't count in science), THEN we can involve science.

 

[hellblazer]

Think about that next time you're in church and you hear them say, You should have good CHRISTIAN friends and avoid sinners and other people of different religions because they'll stray you from what God wants. Because its not what would Jesus do, its what Jesus DID and he did the exact opposite of that. If you're an agnostic and you're finding your beef is more with organized religion than anything. Dude Jesus AGREES with you. Don't let anyone tell you differently when they're handing you a flyer for a Sunday sermon.

I think you're slightly misunderstanding exactly why Jesus spent so much time with sinners. Here's what he said:

"I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." - Luke 5:32

The reason he spent so much time with sinners is because he was trying to save them. But he didn't fellowship with them. He ministered to them. The Bible talks a lot about fellowshipping with fellow Christians and ministering to sinners.

Jesus' problem with the Pharisees was that they represented themselves as something they weren't. He never had a problem with church as a concept. He said Peter would be the rock that Jesus would build his church on.

The mistake you're making is understanding the difference between fellowship and conversion. Jesus said to fellowship with believers and convert sinners. THAT'S why he spent so much time with sinners; because the righteous didn't need salvation. When they say to get good Christian friends, they're right. But don't stay away from sinners - they're the ones who need help most of all.

 

[HarveyJ]

ALL codes are created by a MIND. DNA is a code, therefore it was created by a mind. That is the central thesis. You are challenged to disprove that all codes come from a mind by providing a naturally occuring code. I can save you time--you will be unable to do so.

It is not up to me to prove it, it's been proven that all codes are created by a mind. That concept is supported by virtually all scientific literature since the 1960's!

Atheists believe there is no mind, that everything occurs by natural means. Since DNA is a code it is up to atheists to demonstrate a code that occurs naturally. Don't try to turn it around my friend, try to answer it.

Naturally occuring codes happen all the time in mineral patterns, magnetic patterns, sound waves, radiation from certain stellar objects, etc.
Codes are merely patterns, patterns happen naturally throughout nature.
Everything is predicated on mathematics, although at times it is of an insanely complex nature.
Complexity is not proof of a designer... In fact, it should be the exact opposite. A good designer knows how to make things that are not complex. i.e. Wheels.

DNA is actually a really shit example of a code being made by a mind, as it's needlessly complex and filled with useless data that corrupts easily.

 

[xentech]

I'm not the only one saying it is friend. You are in a tiny minority (perhaps alone) vs. all scientific literature if you say that codes could happen by chance. There is no evidence of this whatsoever. All known codes have been created by a mind. This is not high science and not particularly difficult to understand.
If you want to take a stand against all known science to state that a code could happen by chance (encoder---information---decoder--results), it is YOU who are going against everything known. I am in accord with it and therefore have nothing to prove. My assumption is order. Yours is order from disorder. That's a stretch, I'm asking you to defend it. Many have tried, all have failed.

It is a HUGE blow against atheism, and one for which frankly they have no answer other than to try to turn the argument around, which is transparent to any thinker with an open mind....

You must be borderline retarded.

I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm saying I DON'T know.

I haven't looked into the idea at all and therefore hold no position on it. For the last time, stop asking me to defend a position I don't hold. Why would I ever defend a position I don't hold?

I want you to prove your position, and then maybe I'll agree with you. At the moment I don't know either way, but since you appear to be an expert maybe you could show me?