CPA Empire's Response Thread
- Thread starter Jon
- Start date
- Status
I don't know if you guys know anything about databases... but even if there isn't a "scrub" button, you can still modify your database if you know anything about them. I know I could do it fairly easily.
Maybe I'm mistaken, but I think many networks would like to post here but don't do so because they figure they'll get nothing comments like this in return: "bullshit", "of COURSE you're going to say that", "take your self-promotion elsewhere", etc. I realize you have to be able to handle stuff like that posting here, but if you know you aren't going to be believed anyway, why take the time to post an intelligent reply?
Also, many AM's don't have the authority to speak on behalf of their network. Sure, for talking about campaigns and crap like that, but for discussing corporate policy, or publically commenting on a competitor, not so much.
My opinion on this whole thing CPAE thing? Sure, it's possible CPAE screwed the affiliate as they don't exactly have a squeakly-clean past. But it's also possible the affiliate was caught cheating, got booted and this is his revenge. Based on the shit I've seen in the many years I've been working the network, neither would really surprise me that much.
My gut feel: the affiliate cheated. He claims he had a 50% conversion (or something around that) if I'm not mistaken. Real traffic doesn't convert that high - even on one-fields. He was probably incenting, or he was running with misleading creative somewhere.
Even if I'm mistaken about the conversion rate he quoted, my gut still says he cheated. Why? Because legitimate networks don't make a habit out of fucking over their affiliates. The network business is extremely competitive. Affiliates are the lifeblood of a network. Affiliates KNOW that and as such KNOW they wield most of the power in the network/affiliate relationship. For most affiliates, today's favourite network can easily and quickly become tomorrow's forgotten network. And there's nothing wrong with that - it's part of business.
Operating a network, I fully understand and totally accept that. That's why I do all I can to keep affiliates happy. As do most other legitimate networks. So to me it's ludicrous to think that a network would throw away tens of thousands of dollars of long term revenue from a happy affiliate just to make a few thousand of short term revenue by screwing this same affiliate - AND - run the risk of losing other happy affiliates when screwed affiliate goes public.
You scratch the surface behind most of the affiliates who claim they were screwed and you'll find they broke terms but conveniently left that out of their stories.
Anyway, sorry for the book, but like Mike I too get pissed off when all networks are painted with the same brush of being deceitful, shaving, non-paying, freeloading, idea-stealing slime.
Agreed.
First off, mad respect to both you and Mike for posting here.
Second, If you want to know why we are so paranoid, one word can summarize it pretty well. "Chat". Beyond the keyword itself, we all know AMs gossip. It's a fact of life. And it's a risk. The networks as a whole I'm sure in (MOST) cases aren't meaning to damage people, but it does happen.
Third, while I agree the scrubbing/shaving and whatnot is not something that can be normally blamed on the networks(large networks did not get large by fucking people over consistently), I would say look at the data us affiliates have available to us, and think what you would decide given that data.
- Multiple networks generally have the same offer. Some run it through other networks, some have it direct.
- All networks have the same landing page.
- Split testing identical offers often shows very different conversion rates on different networks.
That said(like most things) it's not that simple. And this btw, is in defense of the networks.
The further back the network is in the circle jerk of cross-publication, the less control they have. Every redirect the click has to go through to hit the main page is another point of failure; a redirect that may be too slow, a cookie that may not drop, etc. If a network is sending shit traffic anywhere in the chain, a network wide scrub can appear from the merchant, and affect all other networks in that chain.
Beyond that, affiliate marketing produces some statistical anomalies that could make most stats professors shake their head in confusion. For example, I'm willing to share that back when I was running wu-yi tea, the keyword "wuyi tea" converted conistantly better than "wu-yi tea" even with a sizable volume of traffic to gather stats from. So things of that nature can also be to blame for the split test.
But it's not unreasonable for an affiliate to conclude the network is at fault in some way when identical offers produce different EPCs. We can see and control nearly every other factor, but when it hits the network, it's our blind spot. We don't know what happens after that point.
What I'd really like to see from networks as far as scrubbing goes, is simply a notification or flag on the offer that says WHAT it scrubs for. It's insane to ask us to produce traffic for an offer that's not labeled as having any restrictions, then have some traffic mysteriously not count.
Anyone here have an API for anything dating related? I'm sure everyone that does knows exactly what I mean. Would it be too much of an issue to at least say what leads true is discounting? That would move "trust" between networks and affiliates light years forwards. If we know what's wanted of us, we can do it. But we don't get that information for some reason.
To remove leads yes, to scrub leads no. The removal and addition of leads tool is to remove fraud, or add leads that dont track. It is not a scrubber like you described.
That is true. DT is hosted on DT's servers and untouched from the networks. The networks do not even see any code. It would cost you 3Mill to get the code alone.
Trust me
The same offer converts differently from one network to the next due to the way that network manages over offers. Typically the network with a low EPC will always have a low EPC on all offers because they either
A. Pull the offer from another network who gets it from another network, etc... Work with major networks with direct deals stop taking brokered offers. let the 3rd, 4th, and 5th tier networks die already. Our industry needs a consolidation, why don't you the affiliates lead that charge and work with networks who work direct with clients, offer technology, and creative differences so its not all the same crap in 400 networks.
B. Pixel management. Some networks dont manage their pixels effectively and therefore end up with whats called a large pixel misfires. these networks know their pixel doesnt fire but because they see an extra 10-40% of revenue that isnt track their short sighted mind says hey its my profit.
Also affiliate loyalty plays a big part in things, most of you guys run from network to network for 5 or 10 cents more. you may see this as creating competition but it creates competition for yourself as well since networks might teach ideas to newbies for the next big offer. How many of you ringtone guys are hitting Acai? Loyalty goes a long way. I tell advertisers to work with 2-3 networks and shut everyone else out, affiliates should do the same.
Finally as with any business there is a trust factor, get to know the people at the networks you work with, youll find that most are good people who wont intentially screw over affiliates, why would we? Without you guys the network doesnt exist, but without the network you dont exist either.
As an industry everyone needs to mature, we need to weed out the garbage affiliates, and garbage networks. This industry needs a bigger barrier to entry so you dont have Newbs jumping in and raising your bid cost because they bid to high for keywords or networks offering what they get, but not paying affiliates in the end. What good is a $1 more if you never get the check?
The broad sweeping statements about networks scrub, shave, and screw over affiliates needs to stop, instead of being general be specific. You guys know who scrubs and cheats, its obvious when you read the forums why validate their scrubbing by running more traffic because your AM offered you a night out at a stip bar, or a ferrari. If you took the scrubbing out you can probably buy two Ferraris and have enough for a few lap dances.
If you support the bad habits it will never end. Everyone hates the viagra spam but its sent because people respond, even though they hate it. Stop supporting it and itll stop. Keep supporting it and itll only get worse.
Yeah visit DirectTrack - Affiliate Tracking Platform ask for a demo and during the demo ask, how do i scrub my affiliate traffic.
That is far from the case dude. There are so many avenues that affiliates can take without the networks. You just make it easier for us so that we don't have to deal with advertisers, shipping problems (in a case of e-commerce), account payable and receivables, and etc.,
Don't think for a minute that we need your ass to survive.
No, why don't you show us instead of being a wise ass. It might once and for all put the scrubbing issue to rest with DT.
You talk about the trust factor - well show us.
The reverse works too. We can run campaigns, take our higher payouts and push every affiliate out of the market, you just make it easier for us, but dont think for a second we need you. This thread is based on the fact that affiliates aren't needed
Go work with an advertiser direct. Most wont even work with individuals unless you do XX,XXX per day. But feel free to try.
Work direct, wait 60 days to get paid, and deal with the BS. See how fast you realize you need networks more than you think.
Now i am not saying we dont want to work with affiliates but your comment can go both ways and across other industries. Why do we need McDonalds? I can make a burger myself. They should file bankruptcy today! I dont think they can last.
What you need is to build loyalty with a few networks, and be loyal. If you whore yourself out youll realize your earnings wont last long. My biggest earnings come from people i have known a long time and ideas we share together, because we trust one another not because we try to slice the others throat the first chance we get.
I think what Mike has done is come on here and speak with conviction, I have not done business with him or his company but reading his posts and stand up attitude makes me wants to go sign up with them today.
As most of you I have my opinions on the response given by CPA, I have also watched the youtube video that was posted yesterday. I wish there was alot more transparency into this situation because the mere mention of sort of a backdoor deal between the parties simply raises more questions to me. If this affiliate was blacklisted why would CPA want him back after the egg thrown on their face? If CPA really screwed this guy why would he want to get back in business with them if they already paid him?
Just alot more questions. I think both sides should have their say and everyone can make up their own minds.
As most of you I have my opinions on the response given by CPA, I have also watched the youtube video that was posted yesterday. I wish there was alot more transparency into this situation because the mere mention of sort of a backdoor deal between the parties simply raises more questions to me. If this affiliate was blacklisted why would CPA want him back after the egg thrown on their face? If CPA really screwed this guy why would he want to get back in business with them if they already paid him?
Just alot more questions. I think both sides should have their say and everyone can make up their own minds.
True. But its the image that went though my head picturing somebody asking that in a DT demo.
Why don't you? Instead of paying us a majority of the lead you can keep the whole vig for yourself. That is a much better business model. You know why? Because you can't.
I already do. There are a shitload out there and take anyone.
That is the only real statement I agree with you so far.
? Mars calling Earth.
.
Trust is a fallacy and runs day by day. Your long time friend, business partner or family member can easily fuck you - it happens all the fucking time. People who talk about trust are usually the untrustworthy IMHO.
- Status