Flash Mob at WalMart - Trashing the Place 300+

[Kiopa_Matt]

^^^ That's a bit of a cop out answer though, isn't it? Going under that pretense, we wouldn't have running water, electricity, or anything else.

Humans are very social animals, but also very greedy and selfish, and when appropriate, extremely savage. It's almost the same as wolves, for example. They travel in packs, if they venture into a new area for hunting where a smaller & weaker wolf pack resides, you can expect the lifespan of that second wolf pack to be abruptly shortened.

The difference with humans is we have an extremely high level of intellect. And I don't know about you, but I'd prefer to see us take advantage of that intellect to instill some semblance of order in our societies, allowing us to live a peaceful, happy, and fulfilling existence. Going the anarchy route means we virtually descend into the wolf pack mentality, which is exactly what would (and does) happen.

EDIT: The other difference is humans are greedier than almost all other species. For example, if a wolf pack has enough to survive in its area, it'll stay within its area. Humans won't. It's never enough for us, and we just keep going.

 

[johnmatrix]

"Anarchy" is the way the universe has chosen to organize itself.

There are natural laws and principles at work within the general maelstrom, and these simple concepts provide an underlying order to everything that happens in the known universe.

For human beings to think for an instant that they are able to improve upon or change a system of organization that has been functioning perfectly for billions of years is the greatest manifestation of myopic hubris I can conceive of.

The universe is a perfect system, and it doesn't care, it will persist beyond our pathetic attempts to defy it's order.

Too bad there's nothing that actually relates to reality under that intelligent and philosophical prose. The nature of the universe is that of ever increasing entropy, not order. Everything is growing further apart, getting colder, running out of fuel and collapsing. Entropy is the change from order to disorder. It's up to us to keep things together.

How is that perfect? or are you being myopic and only looking at only a small section of the universe's life and not taking into account entropy? myopic hubris!

The universe abides by laws, universal laws. If the people of Earth operated like the universe, we would have a one world government, one world currency and a collapsing society.

 

[IceToEskimos]

Going under that pretense, we wouldn't have running water, electricity, or anything else.

I'm fairly certain that the natural world is responsible for both of these things, and that human beings have only been able to use them by determining the natural laws that govern them.

Human beings did not discover electricity, we discovered the laws that govern electricity, and learned how to manipulate it in accordance with those laws.

If the people of Earth operated like the universe, we would have a one world government, one world currency and a collapsing society.

I'd love to see an example of a naturally occurring government, but there aren't any.

Government is an unnatural invention, designed to manage the flow of energy and resources among human beings. As an unnatural construct, it cannot stand for long. I don't expect to see this in my lifetime, or really in the lifetime of any human being, but I believe that when the last of our arrogant little species finally collapses, the Earth will return to it's natural state of anarchy, which is a free market system.

The universe has existed for billions of years, why are you so convinced that human beings will be able to improve on the natural order of things?

I think it has to do with your concept of improvement, which is tied to ideas about "good" and "bad".

I don't believe in the good/bad idea, I believe in harmony/dissonance, and I think that the universe and all ecosystems/systems function harmoniously given the opportunity to do so.

Socialists and humanists make lots of assumptions about what is optimum or ideal, and all of them are predicated on the idea that the preferred state of being for an organism is to be "alive" or "living". It's hard to conceive that this may not be the case, considering it's all we know, but I think the possibility exists that the absence of life may be an equally preferable state.

After all, how would you know?

 

[MSTeacher]

There are natural laws and principles at work within the general maelstrom, and these simple concepts provide an underlying order to everything that happens in the known universe.

For human beings to think for an instant that they are able to improve upon or change a system of organization that has been functioning perfectly for billions of years is the greatest manifestation of myopic hubris I can conceive of.

This argument requires you to defend the idea that the creation of government is indeed an attempt to change the organizational structure of nature.

It also implies that you'd need to refute the possibility of something else in the known universe also organizing itself in a similar fashion. Or defend the idea that other things or life in the universe who organize themselves in a similar fashion have met a hubristic end.

Not saying you're wrong or asking you to, but personally I don't see it. I see the creation of government as a creative expression of intelligent life's tendency toward self improvement and organizational development as well as a means to exercise power and control. I don't think that cannot be reconciled with the natural order of the universe.

If we are a part of the known universe and subject to its laws then are our creative endeavors not an extension of that? Are we not natural, so to speak?

And if so what does that imply about the underlying order of all things to which you refer?

 

[MSTeacher]

I don't expect to see this in my lifetime, or really in the lifetime of any human being, but I believe that when the last of our arrogant little species finally collapses, the Earth will return to it's natural state of anarchy, which is a free market system.

It's hard to conceive that this may not be the case, considering it's all we know, but I think the possibility exists that the absence of life may be an equally preferable state.

 

[IceToEskimos]

This argument requires you to defend the idea that the creation of government is indeed an attempt to change the organizational structure of nature.

It also implies that you'd need to refute the possibility of something else in the known universe also organizing itself in a similar fashion. Or defend the idea that other things or life in the universe who organize themselves in a similar fashion have met a hubristic end.

Not saying you're wrong or asking you to, but personally I don't see it. I see the creation of government as a creative expression of intelligent life's tendency toward self improvement and organizational development as well as a means to exercise power and control. I don't think that cannot be reconciled with the natural order of the universe.

If we are a part of the known universe and subject to its laws then are our creative endeavors not an extension of that? Are we not natural, so to speak?

And if so what does that imply about the underlying order of all things to which you refer?

I think the idea of creating a government is sort of like building an unsinkable ship. We can use our best knowledge and intentions to build something that we believe can withstand the elements and remain afloat, but ultimately, it exists on borrowed time. The steel will rust, the water will rush in, and things will be as they should.

I don't think anyone's life is really improved by government, since government doesn't really exist except as an idea. When the police come save you from an intruder (lol), that isn't the government saving you, it's people helping people, which is a very natural sort of thing that has been happening for time immemorial, long before the idea of government or even spoken language existed.

Roads get built because people want to travel, not because the government determines there should be a road. Government inserts itself in between people and their objectives, and attempts to limit personal liberty for the "greater good" at every opportunity. It is incapable of granting rights or privileges, it can only take them away. It is the ultimate tool of those who would seek to hoard power for themselves and who find the natural distribution of energy, talent, and resources to be something less than perfect.

I agree that human beings and all we create are a part of the universe and subject to it's laws. I also think our creative endeavors seek, at times, to ignore, or reshape the inherent order of things, and that while we may succeed in doing so temporarily, any ground we gain is quickly taken back by the overwhelming power of the universe.

Show me anything man has done or created that will last even a million years, and I'll start to believe that we are capable of altering the order of things for more than the blink of an eye.



EDIT:

I should add that I'd much rather feel some other way. I moved into a house in the middle of the historic district because I get some kind of existential comfort being surrounded by buildings that have outlasted the men who built them. It's a small thing, but it helps me when I go for my evening walks to see something persevering in the face of what feel like insurmountable odds.

 

[pewep]

I think the idea of creating a government is sort of like building an unsinkable ship. We can use our best knowledge and intentions to build something that we believe can withstand the elements and remain afloat, but ultimately, it exists on borrowed time. The steel will rust, the water will rush in, and things will be as they should.

I don't think anyone's life is really improved by government, since government doesn't really exist except as an idea. When the police come save you from an intruder (lol), that isn't the government saving you, it's people helping people, which is a very natural sort of thing that has been happening for time immemorial, long before the idea of government or even spoken language existed.

Roads get built because people want to travel, not because the government determines there should be a road. Government inserts itself in between people and their objectives, and attempts to limit personal liberty for the "greater good" at every opportunity. It is incapable of granting rights or privileges, it can only take them away. It is the ultimate tool of those who would seek to hoard power for themselves and who find the natural distribution of energy, talent, and resources to be something less than perfect.

I agree that human beings and all we create are a part of the universe and subject to it's laws. I also think our creative endeavors seek, at times, to ignore, or reshape the inherent order of things, and that while we may succeed in doing so temporarily, any ground we gain is quickly taken back by the overwhelming power of the universe.

Show me anything man has done or created that will last even a million years, and I'll start to believe that we are capable of altering the order of things for more than the blink of an eye.



EDIT:

I should add that I'd much rather feel some other way. I moved into a house in the middle of the historic district because I get some kind of existential comfort being surrounded by buildings that have outlasted the men who built them. It's a small thing, but it helps me when I go for my evening walks to see something persevering in the face of what feel like insurmountable odds.

My non human ancestor did when he blew his load into his mate. Thank god they fucked like wild monkeys and created our race.

Our ancestors that created corn and genetically altered thousands of different plants to suit our needs. That'll be permanent.

Digital information can be held in stasis for an indefinite mount of time depending on the medium it is stored in. Although there might be some "loss", it is easily reverted back to its nature by looking at the approximate state of the preserved bit (it would be easy to tell if you're looking at a 1 or 0 if you have the right equipment)

Humans have created unnatural radioactive isotopes that have half lives longer than the age of the earth.

etc...(insert 100s of other scientific inventions)

Time may be the master of us all eventually but we are the masters of this world. And what you are referring to is called the law of entropy. you may or may not know this, but entropy only exists in a closed system. The earth is not, therefore universal laws have no practical application in our daily political and social organization.

 

[IceToEskimos]

.....

Sorry, Pewep, I'm only discussing this with real people.

However, since you aren't a person, and are more like some sort of random energy or idea, you might last a million years.

Even still, I don't think you were created.

I'm pretty sure you've always existed in some form or another.

 

[pewep]

Dammit, who told you??