Why the bloody hell didn't you say this like 500 years ago? This is something worthy of discussion....
Health Care
- Thread starter xentech
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Why the bloody hell didn't you say this like 500 years ago? This is something worthy of discussion....
Who's the guy with the billion dollar paycheck?
Andif you KNOW he's been lying already, how can you say you trust him at all?
I'm neither. Everyone on here knows I normally take the liberal side of issues. I just consider this way too far. But I'll read this more carefully, and respond point by point.
Well, here's part of the problem: First, you're only looking at facts from one side. The anti-public plan groups have done a poor job of putting out good, defensible positions even though they exist. You seem to me to be more into assessing your opinion of those people in the opposition, rather than the opposition itself.
The other part of the problem is that it's not the nations wealth. It's my wealth. It's your wealth. It belongs to individuals. And we could be providing jobs with that money(jobs that could include health care).
While I'm not going to jump up and down calling everyone a socialist, really think about it. "The Nation's wealth". We are not a unit. We are individuals.
Here's what I'm saying: Just because you're not writing a check to the insurance companies doesn't mean you're not paying. If I have to send the government a check for a few extra thousand in taxes, or I have to send the check to a health care company directly, it still cost me thousands. You're not saving money. You're just being forced to give it rather than having an option.
Ok. This is a point where I agree. I'm not arguing against reform, and I doubt there's honestly many opponents of it. The media has painted it like that because it creates a larger controversy than actually exists.
Expenses will go up for a few reasons:
1)The Threat of Regulation - Remember those reforms targeted at credit card companies? How did they react? They bent everyone over extra hard when it became clear the legislation would pass.
When we all saw the new FTC testimonial guidelines were about to go up, what did we do? Most decided to cash in while they could, extra hard.
2)Government Sponsored Monopolies - In business, the government is needed to control monopolies. Because our economic system is based on the idea of competition driving higher quality and lower costs, monopolies undermine that. But Insurance companies are so tightly regulated in so many different ways in different states, there's hardly any competition. Entire states only have 2 companies to choose from. This is entirely, 100% due to the government. So once again, reform is needed. But not a takeover. The government is the problem, because they've been passing laws going in the wrong direction for too long now. They're not yet part of the solution.
3)Those Godamn Baby Boomers - They not only put stress on Social Security/Medicare, but on private insurance companies. Social Security is a ponzi scheme, and the boomers are what will break it. With fewer workers than normal (both in terms of # of people employed, and # of people working age), their present numbers take a hit. And they still have to support boomers.
But for the record: our health care system IS wasteful and DOES need reform. But things like rescissions can be dealt with on a legislative level. And the existing laws and regulations about where they can conduct business can be rolled back to re-introduce competition into the market place.
All of this could be fixed with competition.
If I buy a candy bar from speedway, it's kind of ridiculous to bitch it's more expensive than if I had bought a box of 400.
Almost half of those people make enough money to afford insurance, but choose not to.
Of the 46.5 million uninsured:
9.1 Million make more than $75,000 per year (can afford it)
9.73 Million are foreigners.
Also, there's a trend amongst senior citizens to not mark that they're enrolled in medicare on their form, so you lose even more from there.
Even ignoring the seniors that don't mark medicare down(and other factors I'm missing), you're sitting at 27.67 million that aren't insured in a country of over 304 million. AND they still get emergency room care. AND there's free clinics for a lot of lower-end issues.
AND there's compulsory enrollment in basic health services at many universities. I went to Michigan State, and we had pretty decent coverage just for enrolling in the university. And I can guarantee almost no students would mark that down on the census.
On a personal level btw, I have no problem insuring full time university students. At least I get something out of that(good workers).
Part 2(limited by WF's character limit)
I've had things get really shitty in my life at different times. And really good. But those good times? They came because I wanted to be able to afford things like health care, food, rent, etc.
If I was automatically able to get all of that without working, I doubt you'd all see me on this forum because I never would've had the motivation to get off my ass and make something of myself.
When you introduce a flood of new people (including people who take ZERO care of their bodies, hypchondriacs, etc), there's no way for it to not weigh down the system. And even if we were to find some way to get more...the plan they want would be implemented in a tiny fraction of the time it even takes to get through college to assume those positions. So there's not really a lot of hope for a big influx in the near future. Especially since fewer can afford that education.
1)You can't vote with your money, because things like rescissions will affect you just once in your life, and it may be the end. This is an acceptable point to deal with through legislation.
2)The government has insulated these companies from competition.
I know it's weird to accept that regulation is both the problem and the solution...but regulation isn't simple. You can regulate in different ways. But it's a pretty unique situation where capitalism can't work because it involves an end-of-life condition. So address that weakness in the system and move on.
Preventative health care makes them money. Prevention requires testing. Testing requires double checking and speculation. Unneeded tests.
Beyond that, we largely know what makes us unhealthy, and it doesn't impact our decisions - but the ability to make those decisions is IMO a fundamental right.
If someone weighs 400 pounds, no amount of prevention is going to make them not a risk for a heart attack or anything else.
If someone smokes 2 packs a day, no amount of prevention is going to lower their risk of heart disease or lung cancer.
If someone sleeps with 2-3 new men every way, no amount of "prevention" is going to truly prevent them from getting an STD or pregnant. Condoms and anything else do have a failure rate, and require a will to fix the situation.
And these are a huge sources of the costs on insurance company and the health care system. Prevention sounds fantastic, but it's really pretty nasty.
Another point I bring up is that if we were really big into prevention we probably would've vaccinated our entire population against pointless shit like SARS simply because of the public outcry. And it would cost money, and gain nothing. Because people are morons.
Just because they're profiting doesn't mean they're not doing better than the government would. And once again, they'd do a lot better without government roadblocks to competition in the marketplace.
The gov't is the problem, not the solution. Insurance companies behaved in the way any rational company would in their position.
How do you get health care into Appalachia?
If you have a city in Montana where there's 1 person per 5 square miles, and they all are forced to pay for it, how close does a hospital reasonably have to be?
Do they have the same lazy culture we have?
Glad to hear it.
I hate getting all gung-ho America(those people annoy the piss out of me), but the fact is we're the wealthiest nation because we have historically had a high degree of personal responsibilities.
I've had things get really shitty in my life at different times. And really good. But those good times? They came because I wanted to be able to afford things like health care, food, rent, etc.
If I was automatically able to get all of that without working, I doubt you'd all see me on this forum because I never would've had the motivation to get off my ass and make something of myself.
I don't think anyone is. The problem is we don't have enough of them. There's already big waits for specialists. Longer waits if you want someone that's known for their skill.
When you introduce a flood of new people (including people who take ZERO care of their bodies, hypchondriacs, etc), there's no way for it to not weigh down the system. And even if we were to find some way to get more...the plan they want would be implemented in a tiny fraction of the time it even takes to get through college to assume those positions. So there's not really a lot of hope for a big influx in the near future. Especially since fewer can afford that education.
The market breakdown came from 2 things.
1)You can't vote with your money, because things like rescissions will affect you just once in your life, and it may be the end. This is an acceptable point to deal with through legislation.
2)The government has insulated these companies from competition.
I know it's weird to accept that regulation is both the problem and the solution...but regulation isn't simple. You can regulate in different ways. But it's a pretty unique situation where capitalism can't work because it involves an end-of-life condition. So address that weakness in the system and move on.
This is simply not true.
Preventative health care makes them money. Prevention requires testing. Testing requires double checking and speculation. Unneeded tests.
Beyond that, we largely know what makes us unhealthy, and it doesn't impact our decisions - but the ability to make those decisions is IMO a fundamental right.
If someone weighs 400 pounds, no amount of prevention is going to make them not a risk for a heart attack or anything else.
If someone smokes 2 packs a day, no amount of prevention is going to lower their risk of heart disease or lung cancer.
If someone sleeps with 2-3 new men every way, no amount of "prevention" is going to truly prevent them from getting an STD or pregnant. Condoms and anything else do have a failure rate, and require a will to fix the situation.
And these are a huge sources of the costs on insurance company and the health care system. Prevention sounds fantastic, but it's really pretty nasty.
Another point I bring up is that if we were really big into prevention we probably would've vaccinated our entire population against pointless shit like SARS simply because of the public outcry. And it would cost money, and gain nothing. Because people are morons.
Find me a single business that's not.
Just because they're profiting doesn't mean they're not doing better than the government would. And once again, they'd do a lot better without government roadblocks to competition in the marketplace.
The gov't is the problem, not the solution. Insurance companies behaved in the way any rational company would in their position.
I'm not saying Sweden is a bad place or has bad health care. I'm sure it's great. But they don't have the size, population, or lack of population density we have. And they have an entirely different culture. The United States has issues unique to it that serve as massive roadblocks.
How do you get health care into Appalachia?
If you have a city in Montana where there's 1 person per 5 square miles, and they all are forced to pay for it, how close does a hospital reasonably have to be?
Do they have the same lazy culture we have?
Haha I'll add you anyways. Why notCome with an open mind. If I am right you will add me to your skype list from now until infinity and answer every n00b question I may have about some of the quite interesting ideas you have on your blog
Agreed.
I remember reading something about pharma companies selling stuff cheaper in developing countries in a bid to stop fake or generic copies being sold which I guess is fair enough. However it's not just the US consumers of their products that are subsidising this it's also the buyers from other rich nations - many of whom are state-run health services.
So, I think this is a little misleading.
There's nothing wrong with generics. They took a voluntary cut in profit margins out there, knowing they could make them back here.
But more than that, it's not just 3rd world nations.
Canadian Prescription Drugs are significantly cheaper than in the United States
By the way, the US government later moved to block us from importing them from Canada.
And they're not cheaper because it's state run. It's cheaper because the Canadians capped the drug prices.
The United States is doing the subsidizing here.
I haven't really researched into this health care stuff in US but found 2 interesting clips on youtube.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoCen1zfW4c]YouTube - Eugenics[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zd9PrC_6ePM&feature=related]YouTube - Obama Endorses Eugenics Killing 2009[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoCen1zfW4c]YouTube - Eugenics[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zd9PrC_6ePM&feature=related]YouTube - Obama Endorses Eugenics Killing 2009[/ame]
If you're interested in legit research, I'd encourage you to check out this study
http://www.isc.hbs.edu/pdf/Finnish_Health_Care_System_SITRA2009.pdf
Improving Quality and Value in the U.S. Health Care System - Brookings Institution
This is a great study that highlights some of the costs and benefits of a value based healthcare system.....
The problem with the whole healthcare debate - and why I'm pretty much not touching it anymore on forum these days - is that too many people project their political ideologies onto conclusions vs. taking a step back and saying, ok there are BENEFITS and COSTS associated with each model....
Let's do some quantitative research, hire some people qualified to do it who themselves are ideologues and then make a decision on the issues.
That's why you have tea-baggers yelling stuff like
"DON'T TOUCH MY MEDICARE" and yet they also say "NO SOCIALIZED MEDICINE!"
Then people on the far left yell stuff like
"GET RID OF WASTE....STOP BIG BUSINESSES" (while not acknowledging the role that businesses play in innovation spurred by competition)
Businesses are needed to innovate just as the government is needed to recognize the triple bottom line that has to be a part of a humanistic approach to the healthcare issue - IMHO...
"Condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance."....
I just have a hard time justifying a bureaucracy that is going to be this huge for only 4% of the population. I mean, this thing is going to be massive! Huge! It will be bigger than any department of the government save for the DOD. All for 4% of the population. 4% you say?
47,000,000 “Uninsured Americans”
- 9,487,000 non citizens
37,513,000 uninsured citizens
- 8,300,000 make between $50,000 and $74,999 per year
- 8,740,000 make more than $75,000 a year.
20,473,000 uninsured citizens making less that $50,000 a year
- 9,212,850 45 percent of uninsured people will be uninsured for less than four months
11,260,150 only 3.75% of the population of the US
And then there is the 10th amendment:
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
The federal government has NO RIGHT to do this. They have NO AUTHORITY to do this. It's sad that we let our government get so out of control, so far out of reach. So powerful that they blatantly and openly disregard the constitution, but then again it has been going on for decades now, so why bother. I wonder where this sense of entitlement came from. I wonder why people think they deserve healthcare, and not only that, by why they think that it's the responsibility of the federal government to provide it for them. Why the hell would anyone want the federal government running anything let alone health care? People are morons.
47,000,000 “Uninsured Americans”
- 9,487,000 non citizens
37,513,000 uninsured citizens
- 8,300,000 make between $50,000 and $74,999 per year
- 8,740,000 make more than $75,000 a year.
20,473,000 uninsured citizens making less that $50,000 a year
- 9,212,850 45 percent of uninsured people will be uninsured for less than four months
11,260,150 only 3.75% of the population of the US
And then there is the 10th amendment:
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
The federal government has NO RIGHT to do this. They have NO AUTHORITY to do this. It's sad that we let our government get so out of control, so far out of reach. So powerful that they blatantly and openly disregard the constitution, but then again it has been going on for decades now, so why bother. I wonder where this sense of entitlement came from. I wonder why people think they deserve healthcare, and not only that, by why they think that it's the responsibility of the federal government to provide it for them. Why the hell would anyone want the federal government running anything let alone health care? People are morons.
America will never get a full public healthcare system, simply because the medical companies have rooted too deep. That's the bottom line and the end of the story unfortunately. I wouldn't like to guess how much the pharmaceutical and medical related industries pay to lobby (read: bribe) the politicians to vote however they want. The whole field has just become one huge mesh of intertwining interests that are virtually impossible to seperate.
If this health care plan is used for eugenics, the costs is an insignificant detail. If we are concerned about costs, we'd rather be concerned about ending the fed.
BTW, I live in UK and I know what the NHS is like They are crap, the health care abysmal. To see a doctor you need to wait a week, and if you have a toothache they'll pull your tooth rather than fix it.
So have you looked into Eugenics?