You're starting to make me giggle now, because this sounds like dialog from "The Manchurian Candidate," which was kind of corny when it came out 48 years ago.
Health Care
- Thread starter xentech
- Start date
You're starting to make me giggle now, because this sounds like dialog from "The Manchurian Candidate," which was kind of corny when it came out 48 years ago.
I'm LOL'ing myself.
Your response was designed to discredit me when you had no rebuttal.... looks like both you and Obama use the same playbook.... or, Saul? Is that you?
Well, the post office was created under Benjamin Franklin and over 100 years before that the Puritans had laws requiring public schooling.
You're free to think that Obama is Dr. Evil getting a boner over controlling society, but some people were also certain that Bush was going to reinstate the draft, declare a national emergency to prevent the election, and a million other things.
Yeh I'm aware of that and that's the point I'm trying to make, dick heads like him ruin it for the rest of you
....lol
I think sensible folks realize a country without friends won't do very well over the long run. So let's just try to be patient with one another and maintain the strong transatlantic ties that have kept Britain, Europe and America safe from rogue entities over the years...
God Bless America and God Save The Queen
!....lol
I think sensible folks realize a country without friends won't do very well over the long run. So let's just try to be patient with one another and maintain the strong transatlantic ties that have kept Britain, Europe and America safe from rogue entities over the years...
God Bless America and God Save The Queen
There's enough debate going on here as it is without bringing God into it!!
so far, everyone I've actually talked to who has lived in a country with national healthcare has been ok with it. the only people I know of who are against it are americans, who have no experience with it in reality.
I think that capitalism is great. it certainly makes the economy grow faster than any other form of economic system. be that as it may some institutions simply should not be for profit. can you imagine if police was privatized? or fire? are poor people undeserving of fire and police control, because they don't work as hard?
how about military? should we let other countries invade ghettos, but not upper class neighborhoods? I don't think anyone here would make that argument. so the real question isn't whether or not we should live in an anarchy, but it's where do we draw the line between the things everyone has access to vs the things you have to buy. I guess we can disagree, but I personally think that healthcare isn't something that should be for profit. it should be everyone has access to, just like police and fire control.
I think that capitalism is great. it certainly makes the economy grow faster than any other form of economic system. be that as it may some institutions simply should not be for profit. can you imagine if police was privatized? or fire? are poor people undeserving of fire and police control, because they don't work as hard?
how about military? should we let other countries invade ghettos, but not upper class neighborhoods? I don't think anyone here would make that argument. so the real question isn't whether or not we should live in an anarchy, but it's where do we draw the line between the things everyone has access to vs the things you have to buy. I guess we can disagree, but I personally think that healthcare isn't something that should be for profit. it should be everyone has access to, just like police and fire control.
There's enough debate going on here as it is without bringing God into it!!
It's an old saying love
! And if there is a God and he is reading WF threads perhaps he needs to rethink his suitability for the role, lol
All of WF is religious (money is worshipped).
To answer Zeroes, I got tired to sitting on my butt rebutting and needed to make some monies. My positions were made clear earlier in the thread, and the benefits were spelled out.
...The opponents ignore this because it messes with their reality. The idea of middle class or wealthy individuals, all of whom have the financial ability to pay for private healthcare, who still don't mind contributing to a system that allows for national healthcare of some sort, it effs with their reality.
Try looking at some old news reels. The same thing they are saying now they said during FDR's time or during Johnson's time when they pushed forth on social security and medicare.
They're the same kind who go on and on about how they "don't want to turn America into socialist Russia...."
Yeah Russia in 2009.....all breadlines and east German cars that don't run...
Maybe they'll make it to the 21st century one day and stop reading those high school history books from the 1950s...
The commies are coming!! The commies are coming! And they're all driving Bentley's...lol for real
EDIT:
I'll make it easy for you.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Mdf6pxuIrY"]YouTube - 8877 SocialSecurity[/ame]
you know that's a good point. I realize that I've never even looked into how russia is doing economically these days. I know america isn't real happy with them, but I don't know how money is over there. I just always hear it as a frame of comparison, how its the perfect model of why socialism doesn't work.
I mean it just doesn't make sense. we have countries that have national healthcare. we have statistics and data. we have testimoney of people who live it. and yet, for whatever reason, people believe the talking heads on fox. the talking heads who have only lived in america, and who have the best healthcare money can buy. I'm called naive because conservatives think I trust the government (which isn't true at all), and yet these guys trust the o'reillys and hannitys and becks of the world. I think obama has thrown at some lies, and I think he's been shady, but I think he's less of a liar than glenn beck. and frankly, I think I can trust him more with healthcare than I trust a guy who has a billion dollar paycheck to lose.
I mean it just doesn't make sense. we have countries that have national healthcare. we have statistics and data. we have testimoney of people who live it. and yet, for whatever reason, people believe the talking heads on fox. the talking heads who have only lived in america, and who have the best healthcare money can buy. I'm called naive because conservatives think I trust the government (which isn't true at all), and yet these guys trust the o'reillys and hannitys and becks of the world. I think obama has thrown at some lies, and I think he's been shady, but I think he's less of a liar than glenn beck. and frankly, I think I can trust him more with healthcare than I trust a guy who has a billion dollar paycheck to lose.
...Yes you are being naive. I don't mean this in a mean way. You are assuming that that people will exercise rational and logical thought. Do you remember the woman from the debates who said "Obama is an Arab"?
Even when McCain looked her in the eye and said "no", she still wouldn't believe it.
Emotions trump logic any day. The democrats need to get with the program and realize that all the rational facts and figures in the world aren't going to do them any good in this debate.
The best thing you can do if you really care is:
1) make as much money as you can
2) commit some money to supporting politicians
3) Try **a little** to engage reasonably open minded people who have disimilar views but aren't too stupid - special notes: avoid zealots at all costs...these are usually people who throw around words like "commie", "right wing nuts", "socialists", "liberals", "baby killers", "fags", "obamanats", "religious nuts", etc etc
4) keep your passport current
5) try to employ people
6) be happy and live happily ever after
Edit
7) donate some money to some sort of educational institution to affect what kids are being taught
8) do some kind of volunteering with a self help focus - as the poles say "self help is the best help"
9) read international news and as much as possible news not controlled by the larger media conglomerates
10) talk to a wide range of friends from int'l backgrounds so you can start to see things from different perspectives...
Not the whole country. It's entirely different and you know it.
As of 2004, the Veterans Administration was said to be pushed to it's limit as far as care. Time to get an appointment went through the roof. Oh yeah, and it's been consistently underfunded. And if you actually have some money, you don't qualify for much care anyways.
In addition, they managed to lose a crapton of soldier's social security numbers.
And the average age of their facilities is 49 years old. They've had consistent problems.
No, they really wouldn't. When they're talking about covering everyone, they don't mean everyone who could pay the premiums. It would be largely funded by taxing everyone else...some versions of the bill even tax the private plans more to fund the public plan (yeah, that's not capitalism).
Once again. Because it's impossible to compete with a rival that can tax, and can spend at a deficit indefinitely
You can run an absolutely wasteful agency, and still exist. Wasteful on a level a private company never could.
Reform=Good. Public option=Bad. And if you think the VA is good, do some reading.
You know what's funny in this whole debate? People are using the EXACT SAME arguments that were used against COMMUNIST social security as well as COMMUNIST medicare and medicare.
If this healthcare debate doesn't scare you when it comes to how gullible the American people are, I don't know what will.
Seriously.....
Get money and keep your passport current, that it all I have to say. Years from now when they are talking about the great American empire that once was - 'cause let's face it every dog has his/her day - they'll point to situations like this as evidence of utter idiocy.
I know the following is an exercise in futility - but hell I am getting my winAutomation on so at least some work is going on in the background.
1) Think about all the arguments people are making against healthcare
2) Read through the following and compare
Downloads
Agency Administrators' Tenure [PDF, 2.26MB]
CMS History Project Presidents' Speeches Table of Contents [PDF, 3.93MB]
Key Milestones in CMS Programs [PDF, 2.24MB]
Medicaid's Milestones [PDF, 2.21 MB]
Oral History Biographies [PDF, 2.31MB]
HCFA and Medicare Oral History Interviews [PDF, 3MB]
Medicaid Oral History Interviews [PDF, 3MB]
President Bush Signs Medicare Legislation [PDF, 3.01MB]
President Milestones [PDF, 2.28MB]
Why is CMS in Baltimore? [PDF, 3.15MB]
35th Anniversary Speeches [PDF, 2.32MB]
40th Anniversary Photos [PDF, 867 KB]
40th Anniversary Transcript [PDF, 46 KB]
CMS History Quiz [PDF, 92 KB]
3) See how basically the same tired arguments are being proffered - ideas that didn't stand the test of time then and don't stand the test of time and logic now.
Anyway, a person can hope right?
If this healthcare debate doesn't scare you when it comes to how gullible the American people are, I don't know what will.
Seriously.....
Get money and keep your passport current, that it all I have to say. Years from now when they are talking about the great American empire that once was - 'cause let's face it every dog has his/her day - they'll point to situations like this as evidence of utter idiocy.
I know the following is an exercise in futility - but hell I am getting my winAutomation on so at least some work is going on in the background.
1) Think about all the arguments people are making against healthcare
2) Read through the following and compare
Downloads
Agency Administrators' Tenure [PDF, 2.26MB]
CMS History Project Presidents' Speeches Table of Contents [PDF, 3.93MB]
Key Milestones in CMS Programs [PDF, 2.24MB]
Medicaid's Milestones [PDF, 2.21 MB]
Oral History Biographies [PDF, 2.31MB]
HCFA and Medicare Oral History Interviews [PDF, 3MB]
Medicaid Oral History Interviews [PDF, 3MB]
President Bush Signs Medicare Legislation [PDF, 3.01MB]
President Milestones [PDF, 2.28MB]
Why is CMS in Baltimore? [PDF, 3.15MB]
35th Anniversary Speeches [PDF, 2.32MB]
40th Anniversary Photos [PDF, 867 KB]
40th Anniversary Transcript [PDF, 46 KB]
CMS History Quiz [PDF, 92 KB]
3) See how basically the same tired arguments are being proffered - ideas that didn't stand the test of time then and don't stand the test of time and logic now.
Anyway, a person can hope right?
Ok riddarhusetgal. I'm going to call you out on this directly, since it apparently gets ignored when I put it in a quoted reply.
You keep going on and on about the propaganda the other side spits out(which in some cases is present, in many isn't), but refuse to address the propaganda that your side is.
I am going to go over a single thread in reddit(a bastion for pro-public plan/single payer junkies), and find some of the ridiculous crap being said. In addition, I'm going to put out some common lies that are being told by you angelic public plan nuts.
The other thing is that all of the opposition is funded by the companies. It's not. A lot of us reached our own conclusions, are on no payroll, and don't spout talking points. This is a way of simply writing off the opposition, same as the right calling people communists or Nazis. The desired impact is the same.
We're actually in a unique position: We have enough specialists, but not enough general care practicioners. A lot of the countries where public plan worked were much smaller, and required fewer of these. So out the door there's increased wait time.
The other beautiful thing is that though we have enough specialists(radiologists, neurosurgeons, etc), we don't have enough when we increase the amount of people vying for their time. And that's catastrophic care generally; we can't afford a wait time.
It's a straight up lie.
Something that was stupid before is still stupid now.
But the fact is that we do this because we subsidize the rest of the world for medication. Want that AIDS research? Africa isn't going to fund it, and can't pay for the medication unless we do.
Want those public plans available in other countries? Well, part of our 200% is so that they can get medications at the prices they do.
And it was in exchange for a $150 million advertising campaign. In addition, it's generally believed he also agreed to stop us from going to Canada to get cheaper drugs.
So we're leaving them the option of how much to allow us to save? Yeah I'm sure that's worth totally restructuring a system.
Really, I could go on and on. Get off your high horse. No matter how much huffpo and mediamatters try to convince you that your side isn't the one pushing propaganda, that doesn't make it true.
You keep going on and on about the propaganda the other side spits out(which in some cases is present, in many isn't), but refuse to address the propaganda that your side is.
I am going to go over a single thread in reddit(a bastion for pro-public plan/single payer junkies), and find some of the ridiculous crap being said. In addition, I'm going to put out some common lies that are being told by you angelic public plan nuts.
This is a common one. People are always opposed to profit margins. What it ignores is that competition brings costs down. So in a system where the government didn't regulate away the competition, they'd be able to have profit margins, but still provide better care for cheaper. Of course, Washington created the problem of no competition, and now is acting like it's the result of a failed free market.
The other thing is that all of the opposition is funded by the companies. It's not. A lot of us reached our own conclusions, are on no payroll, and don't spout talking points. This is a way of simply writing off the opposition, same as the right calling people communists or Nazis. The desired impact is the same.
Another lie. We already have a shortage of doctors, nurses, and hospitals. People assume we have a bottomless supply, which we don't.
We're actually in a unique position: We have enough specialists, but not enough general care practicioners. A lot of the countries where public plan worked were much smaller, and required fewer of these. So out the door there's increased wait time.
The other beautiful thing is that though we have enough specialists(radiologists, neurosurgeons, etc), we don't have enough when we increase the amount of people vying for their time. And that's catastrophic care generally; we can't afford a wait time.
It's a straight up lie.
No. Right now a lot of health care is paid by the very companies that the government plans to tax. They are not going to pay for the same thing twice. And one of them is mandatory(the public plan), so the result will be most low and mid level workers being dropped from their employers plan. Most of us here will be fine since we're the ones cutting the checks, but the "Average joe" will be bent over.
This is my favorite because I didn't support either the war on terror or the war on drugs. More and more I hear the argument "Well the Republicans did XYZ in office(which was bad) so why can't we do ABC(similar event/practice)?"reddit said:
Something that was stupid before is still stupid now.
Yes, we do. And if the government had found a sane way of controlling them rather than eliminating cross-state competition, we'd pay less.
But the fact is that we do this because we subsidize the rest of the world for medication. Want that AIDS research? Africa isn't going to fund it, and can't pay for the medication unless we do.
Want those public plans available in other countries? Well, part of our 200% is so that they can get medications at the prices they do.
Another fun one. On a ONE FUCKING TRILLION dollar bill, the president has already agreed to cap the amount we're going to save on pharmaceuticals at 80 billion. By the way, that's a maximum.
And it was in exchange for a $150 million advertising campaign. In addition, it's generally believed he also agreed to stop us from going to Canada to get cheaper drugs.
So we're leaving them the option of how much to allow us to save? Yeah I'm sure that's worth totally restructuring a system.
Health Care currently provides 13.6 million jobs for Americans. Since these people were cursed enough to work at a company that can't force itself upon customers via taxation, many will likely lose their jobs.
Really, I could go on and on. Get off your high horse. No matter how much huffpo and mediamatters try to convince you that your side isn't the one pushing propaganda, that doesn't make it true.
Sorry, it's a pet peeve of mine.
You can't write off an entire opposition because of a couple stupid people. Every political movement has stupid people because quite frankly, there's a lot of them.
If you want to post tangents and videos about propaganda, that's fine. But address it on both sides, eh?
I'd like to see some evidence on this point. It doesn't seem to make much commercial sense for a US-based pharma company to charge US hospitals or insurance companies more than they charge customers in other countries - how the hell would they justify that to their US shareholders?
As far as I know, in developed countries with state-run healthcare the government buys medication at prices agreed with the pharma companies (who aren't necessarily US corps) it is then given or sold at a reduced rate to those who need it. In developing nations aid plays a part but I doubt that is funded from health insurance payments any more than it is funded from taxes on cigarettes.
Sorry, it's a pet peeve of mine.
You can't write off an entire opposition because of a couple stupid people. Every political movement has stupid people because quite frankly, there's a lot of them.
If you want to post tangents and videos about propaganda, that's fine. But address it on both sides, eh?
I don't think you're a foaming at the mouth zealot or idiot xmcp123 - that's why I've actually read your responses. I also think you are misunderstanding what I am saying.
In no way do I feel that a public option will present some magical solution to a problem. But I feel based on my careful assessment of enough FACTS as well as my own ideological beliefs about how this nation's wealth should be spent, that the opposition to some form of universal health coverage doesn't make sense.
You discounted the argument I made about employers and costs for instance. Well I don't know where your business is but I can tell you when I compare my situation to some friends I have who have young companies in Europe - it aint the same!
I've got a person right now I'd love to bring on fulltime but even the shittiest healthcare for employers cost an arm and a leg. This is something that our counterparts in Europe don't have to worry about for instance.
As an example,
Since 2000, employer-sponsored health insurance premiums have risen by an average of 73%. For small firms, they’ve more than doubled. This rapid run-up in costs, plus pressures from an increasingly globalized economy, is causing firms of all sizes to pull back from offering health benefits. In 2000, 67% of nonelderly Americans had employer-sponsored health insurance. Just 63% do today.
Large companies increasingly hire workers on a contingency basis through contract houses, temp agencies, or contracts with self-employed people. This allows companies to reduce the number of workers with benefits. Small firms have always faced higher premiums per person than large firms and so have been far less likely to offer health coverage. Since many are new, they feel especially reluctant to provide a fringe benefit that’s more than doubled in cost in just the last six years.
Moreover, many startups exist as virtual companies: They’re groups of self-employed associates, rather than employees. This means they must find health insurance on their own, which costs even more than employer-group coverage.
For 20 years, the services sector, where small firms are the norm, has generated employment growth in the U.S. This, plus employer resistance to rising premiums, has transformed who’s uninsured. Today, almost 60% of the U.S.’s 46 million uninsured are 19 to 45 years old. Significantly, a quarter of all 25- to 34-year-olds and one-fifth of all 35- to 44-year-olds are uninsured. Both those figures have doubled in the last 25 years.
BusinessWeek Debate Room Universal Health Care: No Sick Joke
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My take is this. I live making money. Let me rephrase - I love making money. God in heaven knows there is no better feeling than you get when you see checks coming in the mail just for getting someone to click on a link or fill out a form.....
I don't give some hippy stories about how capitalism is bad and we should all become vegans and start trading ivory instead of currency .
That said, I just can't rationalize how the world's wealthiest nation is in the 19th century when it comes to health care. Really.
I am not talking about doing away with plastic surgeons, well trained specialists or the like. In fact, I've probably got a half dozen friends who worked their asses off in med school and want to be able to earn a good salary through working for a private firm so they can pay off those loans and by their parents that wonderful vacation they always promised themselves they would when they finished school....
AT THE SAME TIME, the economic reality of the situation is that there is a market break down when it comes to health insurance due to moral hazard and externalities - that's just how it is...
Preventative healthcare for instance is the most effective yet THE LEAST PROFITABLE. Insurance companies know this - test after test, denial after denial, this is what makes alot of these companies profitable....
I have a friend who worked in the insurance department of a large corporation. Brilliant guy - dartmouth undergrad, blackstone group Ibanking, then HBS.
Do you know what he told me? Insurance is tilted to make a profit for companies and NOT to cover the buyers....
I could go on and on.....
In any case, I'll just respect people's right to think differently and say this. I bet you if you spend just 6 months hanging out in some hospitals in the USA and Europe and hanging out with some physicians in Europe and the USA you would have a totally different impression you do now.
I tell you what, I am 1000% serious. You come up north to visit me next midsommar and you can hang out with a Swedish dr friend of mine who went to school here in the States then chose to return home to Sweden to do medicine.
Come with an open mind. If I am right you will add me to your skype list from now until infinity and answer every n00b question I may have about some of the quite interesting ideas you have on your blog
Ok, back to work!
Honestly I'm speaking largely from personal experience.
Wayyy back in the day I used to know someone who ran an online/phone order pharma company. His job was essentially traveling to 3rd world countries, finding pharmacists that would ship, and setting them up to receive "leads" from the states. They could afford to do this because medication costs were so low it would make you lose your top. And yes, they were real.
High health care costs aren't just a result of insurance. They're a result of price gouging from the pharma industry. The same one that is in bed with the president and congress.