Health Care
- Thread starter xentech
- Start date
I have studied the constitution in great depth. I don't EVER remember reading anything about health care being a "right". Single payer health care is a state issue. If you want to fail like Michigan and every other state that offers the public option then go right ahead. The federal government needs to stay the fuck out of my life and worry about keeping illegals and terrorist from swimming the Rio Grande.
Really there is no argument for federal single payer. The constitution lays out what the duties of the federal government is and health care isn't one of them.
Really there is no argument for federal single payer. The constitution lays out what the duties of the federal government is and health care isn't one of them.
Having the government with one giant database of the entire country's medical records is not only very "1984", but it means that law enforcement agencies will know even more about you. What prevents hackers from breaking into that database and selling the info, too? We all know nothing is hack proof
True story:
My ex husband's brother is an overweight, pot smoking, meth snortin', fast food junkie, and diabetic. As you can see, he doesn't think much about taking care of his body, and has ended up in the hospital many times because his blood sugar was so messed up he literally couldn't see straight. He's pushing 50 now, but shows no signs of slowing down with his destructive lifestyle.
He makes good money (dual income over 150K per year), but bitches about paying a few hundred dollars a month for his health insurance (family biz, no employer plan). I'm going to hazard a guess that for the last five years, he's come out ahead, since he's been hospitalized so many times.
With Obamacare, my tax dollars would go to pay for the consequences of his lifestyle. Please tell me why I should pay for him and tens of thousands more just like him?
And don't even get me started on how illegal immigrants are destroying the healthcare system. Around these parts, hospitals have reached their breaking point (they've been there for a while), and can barely stay open. Some have even had to close because the cost of treating illegals leaves them with not enough $ to treat the rest of their patients. We've lost several trauma centers here over the last few years due to illegals taking advantage of the fact that no hospital can refuse treatment in the US (not just non-profits).
I'm 100 percent for reforming health care, but NOTHING that is being proposed right now is going to do anything to make it better.
Enact tort reform, stop the illegals from sucking off the US teet and get rid of the corruption that's rampant in both the private and Govt sectors and you've got a start.
My ex husband's brother is an overweight, pot smoking, meth snortin', fast food junkie, and diabetic. As you can see, he doesn't think much about taking care of his body, and has ended up in the hospital many times because his blood sugar was so messed up he literally couldn't see straight. He's pushing 50 now, but shows no signs of slowing down with his destructive lifestyle.
He makes good money (dual income over 150K per year), but bitches about paying a few hundred dollars a month for his health insurance (family biz, no employer plan). I'm going to hazard a guess that for the last five years, he's come out ahead, since he's been hospitalized so many times.
With Obamacare, my tax dollars would go to pay for the consequences of his lifestyle. Please tell me why I should pay for him and tens of thousands more just like him?
And don't even get me started on how illegal immigrants are destroying the healthcare system. Around these parts, hospitals have reached their breaking point (they've been there for a while), and can barely stay open. Some have even had to close because the cost of treating illegals leaves them with not enough $ to treat the rest of their patients. We've lost several trauma centers here over the last few years due to illegals taking advantage of the fact that no hospital can refuse treatment in the US (not just non-profits).
I'm 100 percent for reforming health care, but NOTHING that is being proposed right now is going to do anything to make it better.
Enact tort reform, stop the illegals from sucking off the US teet and get rid of the corruption that's rampant in both the private and Govt sectors and you've got a start.
I think I heard only 30 million people in the US dnt have health care so thats only 10% of the population....
20-30% of those people elect to decline health insurance offered at work the other 20 mm fuck em Im not paying for them to get better! This country is always tring to fix the Minority instead of listening to the Majority
VCFF
20-30% of those people elect to decline health insurance offered at work the other 20 mm fuck em Im not paying for them to get better! This country is always tring to fix the Minority instead of listening to the Majority
VCFF
Well I got about half way through this thread before jumping in.
Is our system perfect, no. Is our system better than a total government control of our health care, probably. The government can not control costs what so ever. The government runs any government program into the ground without hesitation.
Furthermore if you actually study the healthcare bill (which you can see all the controversial points here), you'd see it's not much more than a government power grab. If the government can ration your health care then they become a danger. If you don't agree with the government you can be labeled a terrorist and denied health care. This is incredibly dangerous itself, not to mention things like:
• Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process)
• Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard. (this is going to be a form of world ID something many countries are fighting against)
• Page 145: An employer MUST auto-enroll employees into the government-run public plan. No alternatives. (disturbing because you won't have much of a choice, this is the way the government strong arms you into it)
• Page 280: Hospitals will be penalized for what the government deems preventable re-admissions. (so if you happen to come back with the same thing the government can punish the hospital and or doctors)
• Page 427: Government mandates program that orders end-of-life treatment; government dictates how your life ends.
• Page 429: Advance Care Planning Consult will be used to dictate treatment as patient's health deteriorates. This can include an ORDER for end-of-life plans. An ORDER from the GOVERNMENT.
• Page 430: Government will decide what level of treatments you may have at end-of-life.
Those last ones are really there, they would force you basically to see a counselor at least every 5 years to determine how much health care you can get. If your worth it that is.
So you see this 'universal healthcare' is nothing more than an ultimate power grab. Yes our system is not perfect but it's better than the government alternative, leave it at that.
Is our system perfect, no. Is our system better than a total government control of our health care, probably. The government can not control costs what so ever. The government runs any government program into the ground without hesitation.
Furthermore if you actually study the healthcare bill (which you can see all the controversial points here), you'd see it's not much more than a government power grab. If the government can ration your health care then they become a danger. If you don't agree with the government you can be labeled a terrorist and denied health care. This is incredibly dangerous itself, not to mention things like:
• Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process)
• Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard. (this is going to be a form of world ID something many countries are fighting against)
• Page 145: An employer MUST auto-enroll employees into the government-run public plan. No alternatives. (disturbing because you won't have much of a choice, this is the way the government strong arms you into it)
• Page 280: Hospitals will be penalized for what the government deems preventable re-admissions. (so if you happen to come back with the same thing the government can punish the hospital and or doctors)
• Page 427: Government mandates program that orders end-of-life treatment; government dictates how your life ends.
• Page 429: Advance Care Planning Consult will be used to dictate treatment as patient's health deteriorates. This can include an ORDER for end-of-life plans. An ORDER from the GOVERNMENT.
• Page 430: Government will decide what level of treatments you may have at end-of-life.
Those last ones are really there, they would force you basically to see a counselor at least every 5 years to determine how much health care you can get. If your worth it that is.
So you see this 'universal healthcare' is nothing more than an ultimate power grab. Yes our system is not perfect but it's better than the government alternative, leave it at that.
I'll bet money less than 5% of the people posting in this thread have read the bill.
The comment you were responding to DOES NOT reflect a large segment of Americans. You have to remember that only 17% of Americans even have passports. What they know about the outside world they are fed from cable news channels.
Have this kind of conversation with the segment who actually have some first hand exposure to the European system and you will have a very different impression - don't throw the baby out with the bath water please - that's all I have to say....
Also to illustrate my point you have to understand how the wacko opponents of reform are so effective. Because of limited exposure they KNOW they can say stuff like
"socialized medicine"
"don't turn America into Europe"
"look at Britain"
etc because people are just unaware. Imagine a similar debate happening in the House of Commons and the Tories throwing out similar arguments. It wouldn't work because all those boogey man antics just don't fly. Try saying stuff like
"If we don't do XYZ we'll turn into America"
or
"Look how bad things are in America"
...no one would buy that because of the large segment of the British population who probably had been to America and could therefore say "hang on a minute, that's rubbish, I know that's not the case...."
Here's a perfect example of the unacceptable propaganda going on in the US:
Watch this ad that's been running like a brain-washing loop sponsored by opponents of a mixed system:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHer9bKn438"]YouTube - Conservatives for Patients Rights - Government Run Healthcare in UK[/ame]
Now - looks pretty straightforward right? Of course anyone who read the Daily Mail or the Times (probably .0000000000001% of the US population) KNOWS this was complete balderdash - the women in that video were totally misrepresented.
Specifically they said in the British Press:
"The irony is that I campaign for exactly the people that socialised healthcare supports. I would not align myself with this group at all.'
Ms Brickell, who was diagnosed with cervical cancer after being refused a smear test because she was too young, said her words had been 'skewed out of proportion' by the CPR."
"Ms Spall, whose mother died of kidney cancer while waiting for treatment in the UK, told The Times: 'It has been a bit of a nightmare.'It was a real test of my naivety. I am a very trusting person and for me it has been a big lesson. I feel like I was duped."
'We were duped': Two British women tricked into become stars of campaign to sabotage Obama's healthcare reforms | Mail Online
Who the bloody hell said one doesn't have access to private healthcare in Europe?
There's plenty of choice when it comes to private healthcare across Europe.
And the biggest secret of all is that even the Europeans who are of high income, who can afford private healthcare, who would be putting more money in than than they take out, don't mind the public system, by and large.
For one thing, European business owners don't face the staggering costs of insuring employees that American small businesses do. Secondly, you have to understand there are certain cultural differences that are probably not going to go away.
Europeans tend to feel that certain basic necessities like the quality development of the mind (i.e. education), the arts (point: how can a 1st world country not have a Minister for Culture?!), healthcare, defense, etc. should be provided by the state. Why? Because public goods have externalities that affect everyone.
If a household is burning down 2 or 3 doors beside me - even if they didn't have home insurance -the fact of the matter is that if one doesn't help them out, at some point the fire may spread and hit my home. I'll be affected whether or not I paid for my home insurance or not.
The thing that enrages me when it comes to this whole debate is how these extremist groups are misrepresenting European and other mixed systems across the World - as if it has to be an either/or scenario.
At any rate, one can only hope that if enough people speak out and address the facts vs. fiction, the right decision will be made - time will ultimately tell........
I know it doesn't reflect a large segment of Americans. I say that people like him were the reason people disliked America, what's wrong with that?
The problem is that view is represented as the "average" American - this "who gives a fuck what the world thinks", "we are always right", "we never apologize even if we're wrong as two left feet", etc, etc.
The "cowboy", "Ugly American" stereotype sometimes makes it hard to engage in useful discourse between Americans and non-Americans. As an expat yank - born a yank and going to die one God willing! - I've felt the brunt of it. I'm just saying for every close-minded, unaware American there is, there are one or two who aren't
The problem is that view is represented as the "average" American - this "who gives a fuck what the world thinks", "we are always right", "we never apologize even if we're wrong as two left feet", etc, etc.
The "cowboy", "Ugly American" stereotype sometimes makes it hard to engage in useful discourse between Americans and non-Americans. As an expat yank - born a yank and going to die one God willing! - I've felt the brunt of it. I'm just saying for every close-minded, unaware American there is, there are one or two who aren't
Yeh I'm aware of that and that's the point I'm trying to make, dick heads like him ruin it for the rest of you
It's all a big distraction. As someone else mentioned, it's about control.
High estimates put the costs at around $150bn a year, less than a third of the 500bn 'normal' defence budget and minuscule in comparison to the 3-4trillion spent in Iraq and Afghanistan... then there's bailing out all those banks etc.
Keep the dumb fucks arguing over the small change and they won't notice where the real money is going.
High estimates put the costs at around $150bn a year, less than a third of the 500bn 'normal' defence budget and minuscule in comparison to the 3-4trillion spent in Iraq and Afghanistan... then there's bailing out all those banks etc.
Keep the dumb fucks arguing over the small change and they won't notice where the real money is going.
America is a different country than the European countries. Different culture.
Some of us really don't want to emulate them.
You're overestimating Britain. They've created themselves one of the worst nanny states out of all the western nations.
Who cares? It's one ad.
Pro-Reform people lie and misrepresent facts just as much because they're completely ignorant of how business works. Pointing any of that out will get you called
-A Paid Shill for the Health Insurance companies
-Sociopath
-Bush supporter
-Racist
-Nuts
-Teabagger
Even when not a single one of those is true. Don't pretend pro-reform doesn't play the exact same game.
As opposed to "premiums will triple" "most people get coverage rescinded" "insurance companies make you die for their profits"
That's not scary at all, amirite?
Once again, I could give less of a fuck about Europe. Our government has proven over and over again they cannot conduct themselves in a reliable way. They cannot keep any program they start funded, and it's already turned social security into pretty much a government run ponzi-scheme.
This is idiotic. At least now we only have to pay to insure the employees we have. Public plan makes us pay to insure employees we don't. Just because it's in the taxes doesn't mean we're not paying.
Once again, I don't care about the Europeans. We already have publicly funded education, we have publicly funded art museums. And we have defense. The only other one is health care. So what exactly are you getting at?
Which is why we have a fire department....that you don't need insurance for.
I understand what you're saying(let's face it, there are a lot of crazies against public plan)...but the same people saying that this needs to be debunked are generally completely unable to do the same to their own arguments. They're pushing propaganda, just from a different source. And they lie and exaggerate just as much.
Especially when you pretend that this is free, and will someway help business..you're just as bad as the nuts on the right.
You're misinterpreting that entirely. While those people do exist, I think you're going to find a lot more of
"That may work for you, but we're a different country. In scale, culture, and structure. We've been around for under 250 years, and we're one of few remaining world super powers. We're doing something right."
That I can agree with.The "cowboy", "Ugly American" stereotype sometimes makes it hard to engage in useful discourse between Americans and non-Americans. As an expat yank - born a yank and going to die one God willing! - I've felt the brunt of it. I'm just saying for every close-minded, unaware American there is, there are one or two who aren't
I've read a fair chunk of it. But the fact is I'm opposed to the concept of public plan, and the fine print of a bill isn't going to change that.
There are certain problems with it that I can't logically get around that can't really be legislated away.
