Israel just shot up the aide ships in international waters, at least 20 dead.

[werdnax]

Of course! Clearly the Israeli soldiers were simply bloodthirsty murderers looking to kill a few Palestinians for fun. Thanks for clearing that up!

you don't accidentally kill 15-20 people, and wound another 50-60.

It takes 15-30 people shooting on full auto to cause that much damage.

The M16A2 that the israeli forces uses holds at most 30 rounds in a clip. So even if they had 100% hit rate, that's 3 clips shot into a group of civilians with the intent to kill.

If they had a 10% hit rate(also intentional hit rate), that's 26 clips of ammo used up with the intent to kill unarmed civilians.

If you want me to believe that all these deaths were accidental, then let's use 1% hit rate...completely random right? Then how to do you explain them using up 260 clips of ammo aimed in the general direction of unarmed civilians?

The murder was intentional. This was no accident. You don't "hit" 80 people without actively seeking to cause as many casualties as possible.

That's more people(civilians) killed in 1 day by Israelis, than the total amount of Israelis killed by palestenian rocket attacks in the last 10 years.

 

[Dare Devil]

What professional/military credentials do you posses that gives any credit to your interpretation?

I'm not getting involved or taking sides in this thread because it's stupid, in my opinion, to argue about something we know next to nothing about.

But I had the opportunity to be involved with some pretty intensive training with Isreali paratroopers while I was attached to an antiterrorism command when I was on active duty.

I won't speculate on what happened in this scenario and even if I would, I wouldn't talk about it here. But I will say this: the guys that I worked with were extremely professional, highly trained and EXTREMELY good at their jobs.

Now, I am unsure of what kind of Isreali commandos are seen in the film, but from my experience with Isreali Defense Forces it is HIGHLY unlikely that they instigated or returned fire without being provoked.

That's about all I can speculate though. And like I said, I don't have a dog in this fight. You guys can piss all over each other all you want arguing with each other but the fact comes down to this: the person that said that because the vessel was engaged by uniformed soldiers in international waters, it is - technically - an act of aggression (i.e. war) is technically correct; however, anyone that pays attention to what really goes on in the world knows that nothing is ever as black and white as that.

 

[jriddick]

The murder was intentional. This was no accident. You don't "hit" 80 people without actively seeking to cause as many casualties as possible.

And why, pray tell, would the Israeli military be interested in "murdering" random people on a boat? Were they feeling a little neglected and decided to kill a couple Palestinians to get the world's attention again?

 

[popeye]

Israel is kind of like the US, just subtract a bunch of power and add on even more arrogance and 'we have the rights to...' type of BS. Doesn't help the US fuels both of those.

How you do enlightened souls stand to live in this fucked up country. Why do you guys tourture yorselves by living in this fuckin hell hole. There are so many more caring and loving places to live besides the US.

Whats holding you poor souls back from moving to North Korea, China, or even Valenzuela. Just think in these countries you will never have to worry again about the arrogant government....because you won't be allowed to by penalty of prison or execution.

 

[werdnax]

1: Makes little difference. Everyone knew where these ships were heading. A few miles here and there makes no difference. The result would still be the same if they would have waited for them to come a little bit closer.

It makes a world of difference, it's the difference between legitimate government boarding you, and armed pirates hijacking you.

2: You can blockade whatever you wish if you have the military power to do so.

we are tlaking about international law here, yes might is right, but Israel is trying to play the innocent ones here

3: They were not unarmed. If you attack a soldier with firebombs, knifes, metal bars and try to throw them of the deck, you deserve to get shot.

if those armed soldiers just killed multiple unarmed people around you, you have every right to defend yourself. Yes they got shot in self defense, but if Israel didn't break international law, the situation wouldn't have occurred.

Again who knows the real story. Did these terrorist/terrorist sympathizers make a move on IDF first? If they did it doesn't matter if they were in international waters or not.

the opening shots came from the Israel side. Before these ships sailed they were inspected for weapons, exactly for this reason...so that Israel couldn't claim that these guys were armed. Just look at the body count...it's interesting how Israel is always the victim, while the body count is always in their favor.

It matters a lot that this was international waters, international waters don't recognize Israelli forces, so they had no expectation for the ships to obey them. If this was in Israeli waters, there they'd be in charge, and would have full reason to comply.

I am not so blinded by hatred to aknowledge that if Israel attacked first then they really fucked up and played right into the hands of the terrorist (no difference to me between terrorist or terrorist sympathizers). I just can't see a professional military making such a fucked move like this.

are you saying malnourished kids in concentration camp are terrorist sympathizers? Can you tell me a reason why Israel considers chocholate a banned item? How about wheel chairs? Or how about baking powder? All of these items are banned by Israel from being imported into Gaza.

Yes, a professional military wouldn't make such a fucked move, the problem is that they aren't professional. You gotta remember that this is a culture which considers non-jews to be goyem...basically subhuman. Is it really surprising that an army that shoots to kill when kids throw rocks at them, would shoot up a boat full of "terrorists".

More than likely the terrorist provoked the attack knowing the anti-semite crowd would come out in droves.

Yes...it's a great plan...here is what we do ...we get on a boat, and load it up with humanitarian aide. Then we'll make sure to go completely unarmed. Then when we are in international waters, we'll be shot up and then boarded, with 20 of us killed, and 60 wounded. IT CANNOT FAIL!

The fact that you consider these people terrorist just because they were delivering humanitarian aide(WHICH WAS INSPECTED TO MAKE SURE IT WAS JUST THAT)....just shows what a bigot you are.

 

[werdnax]

And why, pray tell, would the Israeli military be interested in "murdering" random people on a boat? Were they feeling a little neglected and decided to kill a couple Palestinians to get the world's attention again?

well just look at the results, 20+ dead, 50+ wounded, COMPLETE INFORMATION BLACKOUT BY ISRAEL

What do you think justifies that?

If this was a justified response, we'd see multiple dead people on the israeli side, anything else is massive overkill(literally).

Basically if Israel had any justification, they wouldn't have an information blackout on witnesses(some of whom are politicians/journalists from the EU).

 

[subigo]

How you do enlightened souls stand to live in this fucked up country. Why do you guys tourture yorselves by living in this fuckin hell hole. There are so many more caring and loving places to live besides the US.

Whats holding you poor souls back from moving to North Korea, China, or even Valenzuela. Just think in these countries you will never have to worry again about the arrogant government....because you won't be allowed to by penalty of prison or execution.

You Obama loving sheep.

 

[yid..]

Three things.

1. This happened in international waters, which means Israel has no rights and their actions were an act of piracy...or since they were in uniform, an act of war against a sovereign nation. The flotilla had full rights to fight back...the fact that they didn't have any weapons(certified by inspectors before they set off) just goes to show that noone expected Israel to be this stupid.

So to use your police example, this would be akin to you running a road block by Mexican Police in Ohio. They simply don't have jurisdiction to pull you over.

What sovereign nation owns international waters? Your only point of contention is that it happened in a NEUTRAL zone that has NO sovereignty. The first video from the IDF shows it clearly - negative negative we are going to gaza. If Israel would have let them INTO israeli water space then that wouldnt be much of a border would it. You protect and defend your borders. To use your mexican police example thats like putting the mexico/texas border 10 miles into Texas... A border is a border - Israel defending its borders means you take action upon negative negative.
All the 'civilians' were ordered inside at the start.
International law states - protect your BORDERS.

if those armed soldiers just killed multiple unarmed people around you, you have every right to defend yourself. Yes they got shot in self defense, but if Israel didn't break international law, the situation wouldn't have occurred.

And just to fixed your warped sense of timeline, did you see any shooting in the first few minutes of footage released by the IDF?
Did they shoot first at unarmed civilians and then worry about it later? Firstly the 'civilians' were all moved to the depth of the ship before the riot even began.
Leaving the fighters on top. Funny how all of a sudden all the jihads covered their faces with kefiiyehs. You see a good five minutes of hand to hand combat with a lot of 'civilians' brandishing copper bars.
2 handguns were stolen at close combat - so lets guess who shot the first shots? lets imagine cuba decides to send a convoy of boats to florida - and the US coastguard tells them they have to land legally at port and cant just bring their 'aid' to the cubans in florida - and they say negative negative we are moving to the keys you cannot stop us - then
when the US coastguard board the ships because they received a negative - they encounter a riot of jihads brandishing bars - then one of them manages to get a handgun in the scuffle and starts shooting off...
result - 12 cubans dead - 5 injured hard working US coastguards JUST DOING THEIR JOB - who would you have more sympathy for?

 

[Dare Devil]

If Israel would have let them INTO israeli water space then that wouldnt be much of a border would it. You protect and defend your borders. To use your mexican police example thats like putting the mexico/texas border 10 miles into Texas... A border is a border - Israel defending its borders means you take action upon negative negative.
All the 'civilians' were ordered inside at the start.
International law states - protect your BORDERS.

Just to address this, there is generally a certain "buffer area" or "no man's land" if you will that vessels will give sovereign waters in order to avoid conflict and just generally be respectful of. This can be as small as 500 meters or as far as 20 miles or more and its rarely ever a "hard and fast" rule and more like a "give these waters a wide berth if you don't want your ass shot off."

 

[yid..]

Yes, a professional military wouldn't make such a fucked move, the problem is that they aren't professional. You gotta remember that this is a culture which considers non-jews to be goyem...basically subhuman. Is it really surprising that an army that shoots to kill when kids throw rocks at them, would shoot up a boat full of "terrorists".


Yes...it's a great plan...here is what we do ...we get on a boat, and load it up with humanitarian aide. Then we'll make sure to go completely unarmed. Then when we are in international waters, we'll be shot up and then boarded, with 20 of us killed, and 60 wounded. IT CANNOT FAIL!

The fact that you consider these people terrorist just because they were delivering humanitarian aide(WHICH WAS INSPECTED TO MAKE SURE IT WAS JUST THAT)....just shows what a bigot you are.

Actually for the record Israel and Israelis do not have any bias or hatred towards "Goyem" (read goyim) The culture in israel is more affected and molded by American culture than any other country in the world - and yes that includes ALL the schmutz

As for your confused concept of the Jewish perception of Goyim, it says G-d made MAN in his image - it doesn't say G-d made Jews in his image - so to qualify as sub-human you have to be pretty sick and low.... and that doesnt include any of the righteous goyim I know.

lol negative negative lol

 

[kblessinggr]

How you do enlightened souls stand to live in this fucked up country. Why do you guys tourture yorselves by living in this fuckin hell hole. There are so many more caring and loving places to live besides the US.

Whats holding you poor souls back from moving to North Korea, China, or even Valenzuela. Just think in these countries you will never have to worry again about the arrogant government....because you won't be allowed to by penalty of prison or execution.

Every country with power has some level of arrogance, its offset by the level of personal freedoms, so you got Isreal with a lot less personal freedom and to no surprise a lot more arrogance.

 

[werdnax]

What sovereign nation owns international waters?

the ship was flying a turkish flag, by international law, that means it's turkish soverignty in interntional waters.

Your only point of contention is that it happened in a NEUTRAL zone that has NO sovereignty. The first video from the IDF shows it clearly - negative negative we are going to gaza.

israel had no right to detain them that far out.

If Israel would have let them INTO israeli water space then that wouldnt be much of a border would it. You protect and defend your borders. To use your mexican police example thats like putting the mexico/texas border 10 miles into Texas...

Water borders are different, technically Israel's border ends at the beaches...but to avoid your reasoning, they are given the extra area over water, for exactly the same reason.

A border is a border - Israel defending its borders means you take action upon negative negative.

All the 'civilians' were ordered inside at the start.
International law states - protect your BORDERS.

you protect your border, you don't cross it to stop people. To use your mexico example, it'd be like U.S. having cannons at the border, shooting into Mexican territory at people who look like they are aiming to cross the border. Until the border is violated, a country can't do shit w/o catching a shit storm.

And just to fixed your warped sense of timeline, did you see any shooting in the first few minutes of footage released by the IDF?

I wonder why

Did they shoot first at unarmed civilians and then worry about it later? Firstly the 'civilians' were all moved to the depth of the ship before the riot even began.

Of course they moved to the depth of the ship, they were hiding from bullets.

Leaving the fighters on top. Funny how all of a sudden all the jihads covered their faces with kefiiyehs.

i guess you missed the part where they were hit with tear gas

You see a good five minutes of hand to hand combat with a lot of 'civilians' brandishing copper bars.

INTERNATIONAL WATERS MEANS THESE PEOPLE HAD FULL RIGHT TO DEFEND THEMSELVES FROM PIRATES.

2 handguns were stolen at close combat - so lets guess who shot the first shots?

in the live footage, people were already dead on the floor before Israel boarded the ship

lets imagine cuba decides to send a convoy of boats to florida - and the US coastguard tells them they have to land legally at port and cant just bring their 'aid' to the cubans in florida - and they say negative negative we are moving to the keys you cannot stop us - then
when the US coastguard board the ships because they received a negative - they encounter a riot of jihads brandishing bars - then one of them manages to get a handgun in the scuffle and starts shooting off...
result - 12 cubans dead - 5 injured hard working US coastguards JUST DOING THEIR JOB - who would you have more sympathy for?

bad example, in your example these people are already in U.S. waters.

US coast guards boards ships without first shooting them up.

But yes if you get attacked in your own waters, you have the right to shoot them down. Although I'd like to think that our coast guard would be able to overcome a few thugs using the butts of their rifles, instead of opening up into the crowd.

but once again THIS WAS NOT IN ISRAELI WATERS...THIS WAS IN INTERNATIONAL WATERS.

So how about you get it through your thick head?

cliffs: israel would have had full rights to do whatever they wanted in their waters if the ships failed to comply....they had no right to do anything in international waters.

 

[James_Clarke]

you don't accidentally kill 15-20 people, and wound another 50-60.

The M16A2 that the israeli forces uses holds at most 30 rounds in a clip. So even if they had 100% hit rate, that's 3 clips shot into a group of civilians with the intent to kill.

@werdnax, you dont have the full details so better get your facts right before you shoot the shit.

9 dead and 35 wounded. There were no M16s on the boat, paintball rifles and hand guns. The "activists" were armed.

 

[werdnax]

@werdnax, you dont have the full details so better get your facts right before you shoot the shit.

9 dead and 35 wounded. There were no M16s on the boat, paintball rifles and hand guns. The "activists" were armed.

yes my info was out of date, caught up.

but your numbers are shit too.

"Between nine and 19 passengers aboard one of the ships, were reported to have been killedhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla_clash#cite_note-5 with up to 60 passengers wounded"

in regards to M16...yes appears they had paintball rifles, and when that didn't work, they started shooting people with a gun. Which actually makes this worse in my mind, because it's harder to do this much damage with a gun instead of an automatic rifle.

In regards to activists being armed, it appears they had things like metal bars for self defense, and during the struggle a few got their hands on the Israeli guns.

 

[dangregory]

Actually for the record Israel and Israelis do not have any bias or hatred towards "Goyem" (read goyim) The culture in israel is more affected and molded by American culture than any other country in the world - and yes that includes ALL the schmutz

As for your confused concept of the Jewish perception of Goyim, it says G-d made MAN in his image - it doesn't say G-d made Jews in his image - so to qualify as sub-human you have to be pretty sick and low.... and that doesnt include any of the righteous goyim I know.

lol negative negative lol

What about Jews being the "chosen people?"

Since Yahweh behaved like a completely sexually demented psychopath, I've never had any problems being one of the "unchosen" people. Works for me.

 

[James_Clarke]

yes my info was out of date, caught up.

but your numbers are shit too.

"Between nine and 19 passengers aboard one of the ships, were reported to have been killed with up to 60 passengers wounded"

in regards to M16...yes appears they had paintball rifles, and when that didn't work, they started shooting people with a gun. Which actually makes this worse in my mind, because it's harder to do this much damage with a gun instead of an automatic rifle.

In regards to activists being armed, it appears they had things like metal bars for self defense, and during the struggle a few got their hands on the Israeli guns.

Can assure you my numbers are more accurate than yours, but we will see tomorrow.

I dont see how its worse, it shows they came there with no intention to cause real injuries (paintball).
Only drew their pistols when they felt real threat and this are highly-trained commando.

Metal bars, knives, cold weapons, there were around 4 "activists" on each soldier from ZERO range.
4 guys with cold weapons from ZERO range vs a paintball gun? They HAD to use their pistols.

 

[VonRohn]

israel had no right to detain them that far out.

Sorry werdnax, my sandnigger buddy, but you suck at international law.

What Israel is doing is a textbook distant blockade. You place your ships outside the zone you want to blockade and intercept the ones going in or out.

The laws of blockade give them the right to stop and inspect any ship passing trough.

Ok, you guys can go back to your pointless discussion now.

 

[James_Clarke]

What about Jews being the "chosen people?"

u jealous?

 

[Anyway]

POWNED

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV9cl8q_w5g"]YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.[/ame]

 

[werdnax]

Can assure you my numbers are more accurate than yours, but we will see tomorrow.

I dont see how its worse, it shows they came there with no intention to cause real injuries (paintball).
Only drew their pistols when they felt real threat and this are highly-trained commando.

Metal bars, knives, cold weapons, there were around 4 "activists" on each soldier from ZERO range.
4 guys with cold weapons from ZERO range vs a paintball gun? They HAD to use their pistols.

it's worse because you need to pull the trigger a lot more. Auto weapon? Oh it was just 1-2 guys going berzerk and emptying a clip into a crowd. 80 casualties with guns? That's multiple times to aim and pull the trigger.

if they didn't want to get hurt, they shouldn't have attacked a ship in international waters where their actions were the act of piracy and where the people on the ship had full LEGAL right to defend themselves.

And that's full defense, they could have used an RPG to take down the chopper, and legally they would have been justified in that defense.

of course there were 4 activists on each soldier. What dumbass commander, drops the troops one at a time?

Sorry werdnax, my sandnigger buddy, but you suck at international law.

What Israel is doing is a textbook distant blockade. You place your ships outside the zone you want to blockade and intercept the ones going in or out.

The laws of blockade give them the right to stop and inspect any ship passing trough.

Ok, you guys can go back to your poinktless discussion now.

to blockade you need to be at war. According to israel itself they pulled out of Gaza. But that doesn't even matter.

According to UNCLOS you can't blockade international waters without declaring that intent(which Israel didn't do)...according to Part VII Article 101 of UNCLOS, what Israel did was textbook piracy

I'm not an a-rab, I'm American