Jim Jeffries - Gun Control

Rotalihinna said:
I'm all for people not getting murdered. If "fewer people getting murdered" means you don't get to own a gun, I will totally shit all over your gun ownership rights, because in that case your gun ownership rights would be causing more deaths than necessary.
Click to expand...

People Logic...

Everyone was freaking out that someone let their 9-year old daughter shoot an Uzi, with an instructor. Sucks how that ended, but shit happens.

Yet it's totally okay to encourage, even evangelize sending 18-year old kids off to fight and die in wars of aggression against enemies that our Government has funded and created.

Not to mention the "collateral damage", millions of innocent women and children dead as a result.

"Let's take the guns away from the people and only allow the right to use them to the people, who by far, are most likely to use them to kill innocent people".

How many people do the police kill every year? Find that stat for me, I'd love to see it. Funny how they don't keep track or make it public.

How many innocent people does the military kill each year? I'd love to see that stat, funny how they don't track it.

How is gun control enforced?

By thugs with guns, who happen to have the monopoly on the right to use deadly force legally.

Let's make this a moral argument...

Side 1: We'd like to own firearms to protect our family. To hunt. To collect. For whatever reason, it doesn't matter. We won't use them against innocent people. We don't want to be dependent on the state for our own self-preservation. They have a funny way of not protecting life.

Side 2: Give us your guns! If not we'll send guys with guns who are trained to kill to take them from you by force. If you do not comply we will kill you. We will use deadly force unless you relinquish your moral obligation to defend yourself and those you love to the loving, peaceful and incompetent hands of the state. Give us your guns or we'll use guns to take them!

Pretty black and white.

Morals not clear enough?

Let's look at the top 10 causes of death in the U.S. in 2009...

Heart Disease: 598,607
Tumors 568,668
Lung disease 137,082
Brain disease 128,603
Accidents 117,176
Alzheimer’s 78,889
Diabetes 68,504
Flu 53,582
Kidney disease 48,714
Suicide 36,547

1,836,372 From Top 10 Causes Of Death In 2009 in the US. With 2,436,652 total deaths.

The Top 10 Causes Of Death In The United States - Business Insider

While gun related deaths (homicide) where at 8,896 in 2012... .0036% of deaths in the U.S.

Guns in the United States

Depending on who you ask, death by democide (murder by Government) is at 262,000,000 from 1900-1999.

government-democide-hitler-mao-stalin.jpg


If you took gun homicides x 99 years you'd get 889,600 deaths over the same period. If you took the total number of all gun deaths in the US that are recorded, the most inflated number (32,163), and multiplied it by 99 you'd get 3,184,137 total deaths.

0.012% of ALL US gun deaths VS. democide over a 99 year sample.

You're close to 1,000 times more likely to be shot by your own Government than anyone else. That's a 100 year sample period.

Keep in mind democide doesn't include war.

If you want to include wars, throw in 160 million or so deaths, that's pre 9/11. Since then it's safe to say another 1.5 million (probably closer to 3 million+).

Jim Jeffries can sometimes be funny. I'd bet he wouldn't think having a SWAT team kick in his door while he's doing blow and getting 7-10 years for posession wouldn't be so funny. He'd probably re-think his stance on using violence by proxy of the state to force his beliefs on non-violent people.

Think all of that Government is evil shit is crazy talk from a bygone era?

-Patriot act.
-If you have a kid today I'd bet he's got a 50% shot at either being indoctrinated or forcefully conscripted into a meaningless war by the time he's an adult.
-TSA
-NSA spying.
-Drug war.
-World's largest prison population (by far in history).
-Militarized police in every small town.
-Drones bombing countries 24/7 indiscriminately.
-Police killing daily. Wish they kept track of those numbers, too much paperwork I guess.
-New wars started almost monthly. Hi Syria!
-Gamers getting "SWATTED" as a new prank.
-Stop and frisk - cuz yo black yo.
-Operation Fast and Furious.
-Benghazi.
-Russia (AHHH!)
-The list is endless.

Yeah, government is great and benevolent and exists to serve the public. Let's give them the guns. Don't worry if some psycho is raping your family, 911's got your back.

Depend on them for security, welfare, retirement, pensions, education, transportation, healthcare and ESPECIALLY you and your families right to self-preservation, because they can do no wrong. Never have never will.

...People logic.
 


government-democide-hitler-mao-stalin.jpg


Nice pick from totalitarian rule and dictatorships, especially the first four. Anything from any country based even loosely on a democracy?

Do I believe that any government is good? No! Do I think that gun deaths are preventable, much like most diseases that you have mentioned that are brought about lifestyle choice (no matter how small the percentage is - it matters to someone)? Yes!

But, there is no point even discussing this because the goal posts are already being moved to suit particular arguments and points of view.
 
learningcurve said:
government-democide-hitler-mao-stalin.jpg


Nice pick from totalitarian rule and dictatorships, especially the first four. Anything from any country based even loosely on a democracy?

Do I believe that any government is good? No! Do I think that gun deaths are preventable, much like most diseases that you have mentioned that are brought about lifestyle choice (no matter how small the percentage is - it matters to someone)? Yes!

But, there is no point even discussing this because the goal posts are already being moved to suit particular arguments and points of view.
Click to expand...

Does involuntary servitude in wars count? I've been to war and that shit sucks.

3 Million in WW1.

10 Million in WW2.

2.2 Million in Vietnam.

http://military.answers.com/military-history/understanding-the-u-s-military-draft-history

Or how about funding murder by proxy?
[ame]www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM0uvgHKZe8[/ame]

Silly kids shouldn't have been born in Iraq. At least they were put out of their misery so they didn't have to experience what the future held for them.

What if 60,000 innocent (not saying non-violent, saying never committed a crime as defined by the state) are sitting in prison right now?

http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/How_many_innocent_people_are_there_in_prison.php

None of those dictators nuked civilians.

Nor could they dream of having so many ongoing wars, especially of the covert type, going on around the world.

Look at the places the shootings happen. The laws. You're trying to fight fire with fire, violence with violence.

You want to end gun crime? End drug laws. End prohibition on gambling, prostitution, security and everything else the state has the monopoly on. How's the war on drugs working? How are the gun laws in Mexico working out?

People are arguing for the same result, they just have different ways they think it can happen. They want safety, security and peace.

You cannot force any of those on people with the violence of the state. It's been proven time after time. Remove the force, the violence and you'll be a lot closer to the end goal.
 
scottspfd82 said:
Let's look at the top 10 causes of death in the U.S. in 2009...

Heart Disease: 598,607
Tumors 568,668
Lung disease 137,082
Brain disease 128,603
Accidents 117,176
Alzheimer’s 78,889
Diabetes 68,504
Flu 53,582
Kidney disease 48,714
Suicide 36,547

1,836,372 From Top 10 Causes Of Death In 2009 in the US. With 2,436,652 total deaths.

The Top 10 Causes Of Death In The United States - Business Insider

While gun related deaths (homicide) where at 8,896 in 2012... .0036% of deaths in the U.S.
Click to expand...


This, FTW.

Just yesterday I was sitting in a local restaurant reading an anti-gun article in the paper in which the liberal-chick author kept citing examples of gun-related deaths and repeating "How much death is enough death for us to outlaw guns?"... I thought precisely of the above point, laughed, and turned to the Sports section.

.
 
Got damn I hate this debate... too emotional a topic for most people to think rationally. Anyway...

I distrust many statistics anti-gun advocates throw around.

I dislike many of the condescending, emotionally charged arguments these assholes like to inject into otherwise productive conversations.

I don't like how they marginalize gun owners and paint them as paranoid, irrational, trigger-happy idiots.

I can't stand their blind trust in the state. It's like they just assume government is competent enough to "protect us." They also assume the state invariably occupies moral high ground in matters of violence.

HOWEVER...

I also can't take popular pro-gun arguments seriously.

Defend yourself against the State? Are you fucking kidding me? Suicide by government != self-defense. Even in the event of a totalitarian assault on the public's freedom, the likelihood you could rally a big enough percent of the population to effectively fight the state is impossible. Out-gunned, out-manned, out-maneuvered. We're fucked. Get over it.

Defend yourself against home invasions? Sure, sounds reasonable enough. But guess what? The likelihood of that occurring isn't statistically significant enough to stand up in a serious debate. Additionally, I doubt most people can react quickly enough in a home invasion scenario to shift the odds in their favor.

Blah, blah, blah.

My Stance:

Guns are dangerous. They make killing easy. VERY easy.

Bullets can kill a lot of people in a very short amount of time. Anyone trying to go on a suicidal rampage in the 21st century doesn't have to work very hard at it. Just go to a densely populated area, and start squeezing. Pretty fucking basic.

Additionally, irresponsible gun owners and neglectful parents can put their children at extreme risk when they have firearms laying around the house. As a child, I knew exactly where my pops kept his guns, ammo, holsters, etc at all times. I would snoop. Did I ever put myself in danger? No. But the behavior of a sample size of 1 can't be extrapolated to every household across America.

Fortunately for us, mass shootings are statistically rare, and account for less than 1% of all homicides in the us.

Likewise, as mentioned by Scottspfd82, gun homicides account for far under 1% of US deaths.

What about accidental gun deaths? Well, they seem to be higher in areas with higher gun ownership. Ya think? But again, gun ownership data is sketchy at best, and the National Research Council openly admits it.

Still, guns are dangerous. But not even half as dangerous as vehicles.

So what does this all mean?

In my opinion, I think it means the media has done a bang-up job of blowing the "dangers of guns" way out of proportion. You're more likely to die the next time you're in a fucking car than get shot. Hell, you're more likely to kill someone with your vehicle than a gun-owner is with a firearm.

The vast majority of gun owners are responsible, peaceful people. To use state guns & state violence to punish them for the sins of a tiny, aberrational minority is a total overreaction.
 
Fraggler said:
Are they doing anything to try and lower the deaths caused by these killers?

  • Heart Disease
  • Tumors
  • Lung disease
  • Brain disease
  • Accidents
  • Alzheimer’s
  • Diabetes
  • Flu
  • Kidney disease
  • Suicide
Click to expand...

Did you think about this at all? The answer is obviously yes. You can debate if it's "enough", but please think for a second first.
 
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V96RmpbYNVA"]Toos - DIDNT READ LOL - YouTube[/ame]


Really though, less than a page before disease and accidental death statistics get trotted out like they mean anything in the context of a discussion on gun violence - this has to be some kind of new forum-speed record.

I wonder how your thinking would change if someone showed you what around 9,000 corpses looks like in real life.

Either way, introducing disease and accidental death statistics is doing nothing but watering down anything that could have resembled a coherent argument for your own stance on gun rights, laws and violence.

Is anyone here familiar with how accidental gun-related deaths are classified?
 
Antics said:
Really though, less than a page before disease and accidental death statistics get trotted out like they mean anything in the context of a discussion on gun violence - this has to be some kind of new forum-speed record.

I wonder how your thinking would change if someone showed you what around 9,000 corpses looks like in real life.

Either way, introducing disease and accidental death statistics is doing nothing but watering down anything that could have resembled a coherent argument for your own stance on gun rights, laws and violence.

Is anyone here familiar with how accidental gun-related deaths are classified?
Click to expand...

What those statistics mean in this context is there is FAR more moaning and whining about abolishing guns than there is about outlawing all potential causes of much more widespread killers such as disease and accidental death. In other words, those statistics help regular people maintain proper perspective of the big picture when the tinfoil-hat-left cranks up its squawkbox for political ends.
 
intent said:
What those statistics mean in this context is there is FAR more moaning and whining about abolishing guns than there is about outlawing all potential causes of much more widespread killers such as disease and accidental death. In other words, those statistics help regular people maintain proper perspective of the big picture when the tinfoil-hat-left cranks up its squawkbox for political ends.
Click to expand...

Thanks for reinforcing my point.

If someone needs leading causes of death put in front of them to realize that ~9,000 out of tens of millions is a relatively small number of people...they have no place discussing anything other than how they prefer to tie their shoes in the morning.

Anyone who devalues thousands of lives because more people are killed by disease and accident is equally retarded.

The difference between gun-related deaths and deaths from disease and accident is very similar to the difference between essential rights and positive rights.

For this reason they are actually pretty unrelated to anything having to do with gun rights, laws and violence and are at best a distraction from any form of real dialogue.
 
Antics said:
Thanks for reinforcing my point.

If someone needs leading causes of death put in front of them to realize that ~9,000 out of tens of millions is a relatively small number of people...they have no place discussing anything other than how they prefer to tie their shoes in the morning.

Anyone who devalues thousands of lives because more people are killed by disease and accident is equally retarded.

The difference between gun-related deaths and deaths from disease and accident is very similar to the difference between essential rights and positive rights.

For this reason they are actually pretty unrelated to anything having to do with gun rights, laws and violence and are at best a distraction from any form of real dialogue.
Click to expand...

Why do we need to have "real dialogue" about gun rights? Because of the horror of 9000 corpses, as you stated before? I'd imagine 9000 corpses looks roughly the same as 4000 corpses, which is the number of drowning deaths per year in the US. In the vein of your logic, your insistence of talking about the number of gun deaths is watering down the potential for coherent discussions on swimming pool rights.

Nobody is devaluing any lives here. All that is being said is that we don't have liberal twats calling for the abolishment of swimming pools in the newspaper, and we don't have comedians roasting swimming pool owners on youtube... and that would lead one to suspect a political element at work to explain the excess hue & cry over guns vis-a-vis swimming pools.
 
scottspfd82 said:
People Logic...

Everyone was freaking out that someone let their 9-year old daughter shoot an Uzi, with an instructor. Sucks how that ended, but shit happens.

Yet it's totally okay to encourage, even evangelize sending 18-year old kids off to fight and die in wars of aggression against enemies that our Government has funded and created.

Not to mention the "collateral damage", millions of innocent women and children dead as a result.

"Let's take the guns away from the people and only allow the right to use them to the people, who by far, are most likely to use them to kill innocent people".

How many people do the police kill every year? Find that stat for me, I'd love to see it. Funny how they don't keep track or make it public.

How many innocent people does the military kill each year? I'd love to see that stat, funny how they don't track it.

How is gun control enforced?

By thugs with guns, who happen to have the monopoly on the right to use deadly force legally.

Let's make this a moral argument...

Side 1: We'd like to own firearms to protect our family. To hunt. To collect. For whatever reason, it doesn't matter. We won't use them against innocent people. We don't want to be dependent on the state for our own self-preservation. They have a funny way of not protecting life.

Side 2: Give us your guns! If not we'll send guys with guns who are trained to kill to take them from you by force. If you do not comply we will kill you. We will use deadly force unless you relinquish your moral obligation to defend yourself and those you love to the loving, peaceful and incompetent hands of the state. Give us your guns or we'll use guns to take them!

Pretty black and white.

Morals not clear enough?

Let's look at the top 10 causes of death in the U.S. in 2009...

Heart Disease: 598,607
Tumors 568,668
Lung disease 137,082
Brain disease 128,603
Accidents 117,176
Alzheimer’s 78,889
Diabetes 68,504
Flu 53,582
Kidney disease 48,714
Suicide 36,547

1,836,372 From Top 10 Causes Of Death In 2009 in the US. With 2,436,652 total deaths.

The Top 10 Causes Of Death In The United States - Business Insider

While gun related deaths (homicide) where at 8,896 in 2012... .0036% of deaths in the U.S.

Guns in the United States

Depending on who you ask, death by democide (murder by Government) is at 262,000,000 from 1900-1999.

government-democide-hitler-mao-stalin.jpg


If you took gun homicides x 99 years you'd get 889,600 deaths over the same period. If you took the total number of all gun deaths in the US that are recorded, the most inflated number (32,163), and multiplied it by 99 you'd get 3,184,137 total deaths.

0.012% of ALL US gun deaths VS. democide over a 99 year sample.

You're close to 1,000 times more likely to be shot by your own Government than anyone else. That's a 100 year sample period.

Keep in mind democide doesn't include war.

If you want to include wars, throw in 160 million or so deaths, that's pre 9/11. Since then it's safe to say another 1.5 million (probably closer to 3 million+).

Jim Jeffries can sometimes be funny. I'd bet he wouldn't think having a SWAT team kick in his door while he's doing blow and getting 7-10 years for posession wouldn't be so funny. He'd probably re-think his stance on using violence by proxy of the state to force his beliefs on non-violent people.

Think all of that Government is evil shit is crazy talk from a bygone era?

-Patriot act.
-If you have a kid today I'd bet he's got a 50% shot at either being indoctrinated or forcefully conscripted into a meaningless war by the time he's an adult.
-TSA
-NSA spying.
-Drug war.
-World's largest prison population (by far in history).
-Militarized police in every small town.
-Drones bombing countries 24/7 indiscriminately.
-Police killing daily. Wish they kept track of those numbers, too much paperwork I guess.
-New wars started almost monthly. Hi Syria!
-Gamers getting "SWATTED" as a new prank.
-Stop and frisk - cuz yo black yo.
-Operation Fast and Furious.
-Benghazi.
-Russia (AHHH!)
-The list is endless.

Yeah, government is great and benevolent and exists to serve the public. Let's give them the guns. Don't worry if some psycho is raping your family, 911's got your back.

Depend on them for security, welfare, retirement, pensions, education, transportation, healthcare and ESPECIALLY you and your families right to self-preservation, because they can do no wrong. Never have never will.

...People logic.
Click to expand...

Liberals and then scottspfd82 showing up..

funny-pissed-computer-animated-gif.gif


Reaction of those inclined to follow logic and reason:

9df.gif


the_rock_clap_clap_gif.gif


obama_8dd210_13847161.gif


</end of thread>
 
This 'gun' debate gives us the perfect breeding ground to launch two parallel movements, OP.

1. Send all psychos to correction facilities for rest of their lives.

2. Guns for all (sane citizens). The government is likely to clamp down on this one for reasons known to all. That said, outlawing gun ownership is never an option.
 
intent said:
Why do we need to have "real dialogue" about gun rights? Because of the horror of 9000 corpses, as you stated before? I'd imagine 9000 corpses looks roughly the same as 4000 corpses, which is the number of drowning deaths per year in the US. In the vein of your logic, your insistence of talking about the number of gun deaths is watering down the potential for coherent discussions on swimming pool rights.

Nobody is devaluing any lives here. All that is being said is that we don't have liberal twats calling for the abolishment of swimming pools in the newspaper, and we don't have comedians roasting swimming pool owners on youtube... and that would lead one to suspect a political element at work to explain the excess hue & cry over guns vis-a-vis swimming pools.
Click to expand...

If you're actually engaging with or giving credence to this aspect of the gun rights/laws dialogue you need to turn your television set off.

Also, the purpose of trotting out those statistics in reference to gun deaths is to devalue the deaths from gun violence. The function is, "Oh that's not so many when compared to that"...which is literally devaluing.

They're inherently incomparable sets of statistics in the context of an actual discussion on gun rights and violence. By putting the focus on the disease/accidental death stats out the goal posts are shifted from "Let's Talk About Gun Rights and Violence" to "Let's Talk About How Guns Don't Kill As Many People As Other Stuff".

Since when do disease and accident inherently require a third party taking action with intent in order to cause death?

The issue has absolutely nothing to do with how many people are killed by guns each year and everything to do with the existence of a relatively affordable, easily usable, ranged mechanism of death and destruction (with the potential for it to cause this at scale differentiating it from things like throwing knives, bows, etc) publicly available to members of our society. Whatever spin the liberal media you seem to despise chooses to put on it doesn't do anything to change this,

I'm far from versed in gun politics if I'm being totally honest, but looking at gun deaths through the lens of overall death in a society is a detour from actually talking about gun violence itself.
 
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