are you shitting me??? if you got paid you better pay up. f ML, would never use you guys. blow me forever. skrilla might have f'd the email a bit, i've seen worse for sure. but you need to let him get in touch with the advertiser to make sure you haven't been paid. if you've been paid and hold back, he should sue your asses. peace out bitches, another network to avoid.
MarketLeverage vs Skrilla
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um, you do realize the above points are one and the same right? you're making your case by using the same bullshit argument over and over and trying to make it look like several different infractions. the point is that MONEY WAS MADE from his leads. period. yes, you are in your (legal) rights to not pay him a dime but guess what, that's just bad business and is enough to make a lot of compliant publishers not want to work with you. you say you were served a legal notice. that doesn't mean shit. are you being SUED? yes/no. were you paid for the leads? yes/no. if no, why don't you provide advertiser info so this can be verified? it's obvious the trust in your company is down the toilet being that you promised payment for the other campaigns on a few occasions and didn't follow through. definitely a horrible way to handle the situation on your part imo.
and to think all this may have been started by someone who was fed up by spam and forwarded the email to a couple of people ...
I think there are 2 issues to this:
1) Did ML get paid by the advertiser on skrilla's leads? ML has said they were forced to pull the ad, but did they get paid for skrilla's leads before they were forced to pull the ad?
If ML proves they were never paid for skrilla's leads by the advertiser then that resolves #1 above. The issue is if ML did get paid for those leads (that violated T&C) but did NOT pay skrilla.
2) Skrilla stated he was told twice he would receive payment from ML on Friday and then on Monday, but now is being told he will be paid net 15. Why was he told twice he would receive the wire?
This misinformation on the payments makes affiliates nervous.
Disclaimer: Of course I can understand ML's actions if they feel H&D is pursuing legal action - but if all this is based on a legal form letter to ML - I think the affiliates will be around longer than the the offers, so best to maintain integrity with affiliates - assuming this is a one-time violation by skrilla.
1) Did ML get paid by the advertiser on skrilla's leads? ML has said they were forced to pull the ad, but did they get paid for skrilla's leads before they were forced to pull the ad?
If ML proves they were never paid for skrilla's leads by the advertiser then that resolves #1 above. The issue is if ML did get paid for those leads (that violated T&C) but did NOT pay skrilla.
2) Skrilla stated he was told twice he would receive payment from ML on Friday and then on Monday, but now is being told he will be paid net 15. Why was he told twice he would receive the wire?
This misinformation on the payments makes affiliates nervous.
Disclaimer: Of course I can understand ML's actions if they feel H&D is pursuing legal action - but if all this is based on a legal form letter to ML - I think the affiliates will be around longer than the the offers, so best to maintain integrity with affiliates - assuming this is a one-time violation by skrilla.
Hehe looks like I pulled the owner into this mess. Michael, ideally I would have liked to go through you instead of Sal on this. Since you are the owner and are Sal's boss. However I was told Sal makes all the descions and he was the man to go through.
BUT YOU GUYS ARE MISSING THE FUCKING POINT. QUIT DODGING THIS!! WE HAD A FUCKING DEAL IN PLACE TO RECOUP SOME OF THE LOSSES. I'VE ALREADY EXPLAINED THIS DEAL MANY TIMES. WHY DID YOU BACK OUT OF IT!! PLEASE EXPLAIN TO THE WF MEMEBERS WHY YOU BACKED OUT OF OUR DEAL!! AND WHY I HAVENT GOTTEN ANY MONEY THIS MONTH AFTER AGREEING TO SEND IT TWICE!! I STILL DONT BELIEVE YOU GUYS DIDNT GET PAID AND NEITHER DO MOST OF THE MEMBERS ON HERE. YOU WONT REVEAL THE ADVERTISER!! HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO BELIEVE YOU WHEN ALL I'VE BEEN FED IS LIES. WHICH MEANS YES, YOU OWE ME 22K FOR H&D + 16K FOR OTHER TRAFFIC CREATED. PAY UP!
I alos think I have crediability as a guide for the mailing section of this forum. Give me a break man, I've been doing this for a WHILE! Stop acting like a whiney baby and pay your fucking publishers!!! AGAIN I REPEAT I AM NOT THE ONLY ONE WHO IS HAVING PROBLEMS WITH MARKET LEVERAGE!
It's obvious that Mr. Jenkins danced around the topic of whether or not Market Leverage got paid by the advertiser or just ignored it altogether. Additionally, as poolemit pointed out he made three bulletin points in his post in an attempt to make it seem as though skrilla was in violation of much more than what he is actually being accused of.
Those two actions right there are enough to make me avoid this company since they are at least semi-deceitful. But that's just my two cents. Carry on.
Those two actions right there are enough to make me avoid this company since they are at least semi-deceitful. But that's just my two cents. Carry on.
The real issue here is ML gave their word and later reneged. Like skrilla stated, disregard the details of the TOS, that was in the past. They gave their word to work a deal with him to make it right and failed to do so.
IMO, ML can't be trusted and is conducting business unethically and I will avoid them. Any other decent company would honor promises made to their customers.
IMO, ML can't be trusted and is conducting business unethically and I will avoid them. Any other decent company would honor promises made to their customers.
ML went back on their word and broke their arrangement with skrilla?
Um... no shit. If somebody completely broke your company's TOS in an incredibly unethical way that put your company at risk, I'd like to think you'd be smart enough to say "whoa, wait a minute. let's make sure this guy hasn't screwed us with previous campaigns before we pay him." If skrilla blatantly breaks ML's TOS, then he loses all priveledges. It's ML's right to investigate an obviously unscrupulous mailer and make sure he hasn't put them at further risk.
People are jumping on ML saying that they lied about paying skrilla on friday, but when a company finds out somebody lied, cheated, and put their company at risk, I think the company is more than justified in pushing back any payment dates until they can determine just how badly skrilla has acted.
Everybody wanted a poll to pull ML as an advertiser and now Jon is investigating whether or not to pull them and put them on a blacklist if they are at fault. How about skrilla gets pulled as a guide? He clearly did some incredibly unethical mailing that violated a company's TOS. He then brought it here, openly attacking a company that, so far, seems clean in this case. If I were a mailer, I'd sure stay the hell away from skrilla and anything he had to say. Doesn't quite seem like "guide" quality to me.
Um... no shit. If somebody completely broke your company's TOS in an incredibly unethical way that put your company at risk, I'd like to think you'd be smart enough to say "whoa, wait a minute. let's make sure this guy hasn't screwed us with previous campaigns before we pay him." If skrilla blatantly breaks ML's TOS, then he loses all priveledges. It's ML's right to investigate an obviously unscrupulous mailer and make sure he hasn't put them at further risk.
People are jumping on ML saying that they lied about paying skrilla on friday, but when a company finds out somebody lied, cheated, and put their company at risk, I think the company is more than justified in pushing back any payment dates until they can determine just how badly skrilla has acted.
Everybody wanted a poll to pull ML as an advertiser and now Jon is investigating whether or not to pull them and put them on a blacklist if they are at fault. How about skrilla gets pulled as a guide? He clearly did some incredibly unethical mailing that violated a company's TOS. He then brought it here, openly attacking a company that, so far, seems clean in this case. If I were a mailer, I'd sure stay the hell away from skrilla and anything he had to say. Doesn't quite seem like "guide" quality to me.
This post says it much better than I have been able to.
To answer a few more questions:
Engaged – IF WE HAVE BEEN PAID - SKRILLA HAS BEEN PAID. Skrilla was paid net 1 (our standard payout is net 15) for all May traffic he generated. WE HAVE NOT BEEN PAID ON ANY TRAFFIC SKRILLA GENERATED IN JUNE. The only decision we made was to not PREPAY skrilla based on obvious problems with his traffic. We will not be receiving any payment on the Harry and David traffic skrilla generated – ever. Given the stunt skrilla pulled from June 8 -11 we can't be stupid enough to just pay him the special weekly payout we gave him in advance of getting paid ourselves. We prepay publishers all the time..many we pay weeks before getting payment...but skrilla broke his agreement with us.
ALSO - We received the legal notice from Harry and David on Thurs as the result of skrilla removing all of the required language from the ad. I decided to wait to pay him until we figure out the extent of the damage he has caused ML and the advertiser.
- The advertiser has offered to call Jon today to help clear this up...and verify that we have not been paid.
Thanks -
Michael
Skrilla, you say you have been mailing for a while and you represent the mailing guide for Jons forum… Then why would you send non can-spam compliant emails?
Why would you change an ad so much that now not only is it deceitful but illegal as well.
You'll be lucky if Harry and David doesn't sue your ass hard!! or let me rephrase that, your lucky that you have not been sued yet.
Don't continue to try and bash ML to justify what you did. You're getting paid by ML on the 15th, take your money and leave it alone, you fucked up not them.
Trying to bash a company for your own fuckups makes you look bad as well as Jon and all of us good people on the site.
Jon has said it before… 2007 is the year for cleaning this industry up and sending deceitful SPAM-like emails just for extra clicks ruins it for all of us and also puts us ALL of us at risk.
Mailing like that is a thing of the past and as a MAILING guide you should have known better.
They said they were paying you and honestly… you are lucky to get anything at all.
That entire creative was horrible and completely against everything us REAL mailers believe in.
I feel bad for Jon if you are saying you represent mailing for him and then your sending out non can-spam compliant stuff, you reflect his site and doing stuff like that makes him look like shit.
You can say I have no credibility, you can say this is my first post… because it is, But, I am a fucking mailer who watches WF regularly. The rest of us mailers see you making a complete ass out of yourself right now, and shitting all over a good site while you do it.
Trust me I am not with ML nor do I represent them, so no spitting that out, I am a mailer and from a REAL mailers standpoint you have gone way overboard.
I also know a ton of people that have worked with ML and have NEVER had a problem.
If affiliate networks allowed everyone to break the rules until they got sued… they would be in a whole lot of trouble. They have to make sure mailers like you do not think it is acceptable to just make your own rules as you go along. If you changed the ad and it was can-spam compliant… that's one thing. But making the ad completely illegal – IMO you shouldn't be paid at all.
Jon is looking into it, leave it at that. I'm sure if we look into it… this isnt the first time skrilla has done this.
Why not lock this stupid thread before skrilla makes himself look worse than he already did.
Why would you change an ad so much that now not only is it deceitful but illegal as well.
You'll be lucky if Harry and David doesn't sue your ass hard!! or let me rephrase that, your lucky that you have not been sued yet.
Don't continue to try and bash ML to justify what you did. You're getting paid by ML on the 15th, take your money and leave it alone, you fucked up not them.
Trying to bash a company for your own fuckups makes you look bad as well as Jon and all of us good people on the site.
Jon has said it before… 2007 is the year for cleaning this industry up and sending deceitful SPAM-like emails just for extra clicks ruins it for all of us and also puts us ALL of us at risk.
Mailing like that is a thing of the past and as a MAILING guide you should have known better.
They said they were paying you and honestly… you are lucky to get anything at all.
That entire creative was horrible and completely against everything us REAL mailers believe in.
I feel bad for Jon if you are saying you represent mailing for him and then your sending out non can-spam compliant stuff, you reflect his site and doing stuff like that makes him look like shit.
You can say I have no credibility, you can say this is my first post… because it is, But, I am a fucking mailer who watches WF regularly. The rest of us mailers see you making a complete ass out of yourself right now, and shitting all over a good site while you do it.
Trust me I am not with ML nor do I represent them, so no spitting that out, I am a mailer and from a REAL mailers standpoint you have gone way overboard.
I also know a ton of people that have worked with ML and have NEVER had a problem.
If affiliate networks allowed everyone to break the rules until they got sued… they would be in a whole lot of trouble. They have to make sure mailers like you do not think it is acceptable to just make your own rules as you go along. If you changed the ad and it was can-spam compliant… that's one thing. But making the ad completely illegal – IMO you shouldn't be paid at all.
Jon is looking into it, leave it at that. I'm sure if we look into it… this isnt the first time skrilla has done this.
Why not lock this stupid thread before skrilla makes himself look worse than he already did.
Are you fucking retarded or can you just not read? Irregardless of what happened beforehand, promises were made to skrilla after the fact. That is the crux of this issue. They lied to him plain and simple and conducted themselves unethically.
First off I work for ML and can shed some light on this.
After skrilla sent the unauthorized creative we wanted to give him a second chance, both with our network and to gain ground on the income that wasn't earned. The payment to skrilla was dependent on 2 things: 1) that he would send only approved creative, from, and subject lines and 2) that he maintain the same volume level with the correct creative as he did with the misleading creative. In terms of volume level he failed miserably which only makes sense. To add to this the agreement made with him was also before we received legal notice from H&D which again also spins things in a different direction after we had received that notice.
After skrilla sent the unauthorized creative we wanted to give him a second chance, both with our network and to gain ground on the income that wasn't earned. The payment to skrilla was dependent on 2 things: 1) that he would send only approved creative, from, and subject lines and 2) that he maintain the same volume level with the correct creative as he did with the misleading creative. In terms of volume level he failed miserably which only makes sense. To add to this the agreement made with him was also before we received legal notice from H&D which again also spins things in a different direction after we had received that notice.
ML's failure to control and resolve this situation is enough to keep me away from them, regardless of whether or not skrilla's actions violated their terms.
You've got the CEO of the network on a forum calling their affiliate's position "BS" and "ridiculous", and then threatening to sue their affiliate. Very unprofessional and exactly the kind of thing that will keep other affiliates away from your network.
Internet marketing revolution be damned, good business is still good business. For more examples of good business, see page 3 of this thread where Jon kills your contract.
You've got the CEO of the network on a forum calling their affiliate's position "BS" and "ridiculous", and then threatening to sue their affiliate. Very unprofessional and exactly the kind of thing that will keep other affiliates away from your network.
Internet marketing revolution be damned, good business is still good business. For more examples of good business, see page 3 of this thread where Jon kills your contract.
As ML and skrilla have all said, the early payment was contingent on a few different things. Skrilla admitted his volume wasn't up to par, and thus, his "special" early payment has been held off on.
H&D as well as HL should sue skrilla. By sending out such grossly misleading and fraudulent emails, skrilla damaged HL and H&D's image. The leads were definitely not fine as they were obviously from mislead recipients, thus, aren't the type of traffic the advertiser was expecting and definitely not the traffic the advertiser was willing to pay for since there were CLEAR RESTRICTIONs on the ad copy.
Seems locking the thread would serve ML's interest a lot better than skrilla's or anyone else on the forum really. :error:
How about locking the thread, and then making it a sticky? Or do you just not want people reading the thread at all? Less chance of them linking to it and having it turn up next time an affiliate decides to research ML.
Here is a good view of how we treat our publishers at ML:
1. We Paid Skrilla Net 1 in his first month on the network
2. I personally sent him a signed "Tony Romo" football with Skrilla's name engraved on the glass case to his house!
3. We agreed to pay weekly with certain volume requirements
Then, after hearing from the advertiser on the non compliance, we decided to give him a second chance and as long as he sent approved creative, from, and subject lines, we would continue moving forward with the same plan.
Skrilla mailed little to no volume, therefore breaking the agreement, so we are going to pay him Net 15 for his June traffic, which is our standard publisher payout terms - after we get paid from the advertisers.
1. We Paid Skrilla Net 1 in his first month on the network
2. I personally sent him a signed "Tony Romo" football with Skrilla's name engraved on the glass case to his house!
3. We agreed to pay weekly with certain volume requirements
Then, after hearing from the advertiser on the non compliance, we decided to give him a second chance and as long as he sent approved creative, from, and subject lines, we would continue moving forward with the same plan.
Skrilla mailed little to no volume, therefore breaking the agreement, so we are going to pay him Net 15 for his June traffic, which is our standard publisher payout terms - after we get paid from the advertisers.
Too bad it wasn't a Harry and David offer... it was an "independent rewards" company with a "H&D Gift Card" offer. Putting Harry and David in the from line is a serious violation of the canspam act.... Harry and David is now well within their rights to sue ML and skrilla. Also, the "independent rewards" company is well within thier rights not to pay for the traffic.
ML protects the identity of their affiliates... which could prevent skrilla from getting sued. So, IMO I think it would be in his best interest to remove this entire thread before they find out who he is.
ML protects the identity of their affiliates... which could prevent skrilla from getting sued. So, IMO I think it would be in his best interest to remove this entire thread before they find out who he is.
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