Marxist Administration Aiming To Silence, Imprison Patriotic Americans For Dissent

[Moxie]

Your tactics are so pathetic - are you one of George Soros' paid blogger whores? Bush did it, so it's alright? I wouldn't be surprised if you in fact do work for the Marxists themselves, all you ever spout is communist propaganda.

Bush is gone, but a lot of the voters still blindly support everything politicians do based on political party. Your brand of alarmism reinforces these types into thinking that everything is fine when their side is in charge, but that the world is coming to end when the other side is.

 

[envision]

JustFU and hellblazer, you need to chill and stop whining.

In other words, you're a totalitarian who wants to steal money from one person and give it to whomever YOU deem fit to receive it.

So, by your logic, every single thing out there should somehow be reformed by the government? After all, I'm sure that a grocery stores number one concern is profit,

Don't act stupid. Both of you. You know that doesn't hold up. Where did I say or imply anything about "every single thing out there"? How does supporting a public healthcare system make anyone a "totalitarian who wants to steal"? Don't exaggerate to such extremes, it only makes you look unreasonable and fanatic.

There are private goods, like those groceries, for which a free market and the profit motive is the most efficient platform, no doubt. There are public goods for which a free market is simply not the best or even feasible solution. Look over the list of services I gave above for examples.

The question is, should health care be part of that list or is it a private good? Easy to answer. If it was strictly private, you shouldn't rely on other people to pay for you. You go to the hospital, you pay your own bill. Just like when you go to the grocery store. You can't pay - don't go to the hospital! Every insurance effectively makes other people pay for you. That's the whole idea - people pool their money to mitigate the potentially lethal risk for the individual. So it's not a private good from the onset.

OK, so at least we should leave that insurance business up to free private enterprise, right?

Sure, if you want to deal with preexisting condition denials, life-time maximums, annual maximums and all the other crap I listed earlier. Basically anything companies can come up with to take your money as long as you're healthy and bump you off when you get really sick, like paying their analysts bonuses to find reasons to drop you in the middle of expensive chemotherapy. Welcome to for-profit healthcare.

There's another thing: insurance by nature works better the more people are in the pool. There is almost no point having insurance in the first place when only the sick are in it and the healthy can all waive out. See that guy Matt in the other thread. Why did he not have insurance? "I felt relatively healthy and at this age, naievty got the better of me, thinking I was invincible." There are plenty of peeps like him, and it's because of them that my Kaiser Permanente plan currently costs $196/month, but once I'm 65, the same plan will be $1,190. I can see how this is prohibitive for many elderly folks. I'd much rather want to live in a place where young guys like Matt don't have to come begging for donations and where I won't be forced to give up health insurance when I'm retired. That's why participation should not be voluntary.

You stupid mother fucker. In the country that we live in, almost everything that we do or don't do as long as our actions don't affect others is supposed to be voluntary.

No. My girlfriend doesn't drive. Why should SHE pay for the street that YOU drive on? Can she come to your door and take back the piece she involuntarily paid for, leaving a nice pot hole in front of your driveway? There are plenty of other examples where you are forced to participate whether you directly benefit or not. Just think of all the military spending. Can I please get a tax deduction for opposing war?

One thing is for sure, nothing the government ever does is make a profit.

Guess what - the government is not in business to make profit. By its very nature it will take money from people and spend it on public goods that hopefully benefit the country as a whole. Sure, there will always be someone who feels shortchanged (Why should *I* pay for the National Park Service when I live on a fucking island?), but that's how democracy works. Majority rules. If you don't like it or if you think there's too much "mismanagement, fuck ups, and blunders", it's very simple: Elect a different government.

Free market entrepeneurs are 'greedy profiteers' who must be controlled.

You referred to my example of "over-greedy profiteers polluting our rivers". And yes, I absolutely think such excesses must be controlled. We should have a free market, of course, but, to quote JustFU, do "almost everything that we do or don't do as long as our actions don't affect others". If you don't see the sense in that, I invite you to move to China, where in the absence of enforced regulations some "entrepreneurs" don't give a rat's ass about the environment and don't even stop short of poisioning China's babies for their own enrichment. Go breathe the air in Beijing, take a dip in a filthy Chinese lake on your day off, brush your teeth with toxic toothpaste, and have your kids stick lead-painted toys in their mouths.

I'll gladly stay here where I'm protected from this crap by the EPA, FDA and CPB, which are part of a government which of course "never gets anything right."

is it just that you don't make enough cash for it to make a difference? ...
my neighbor just added a fucking 1000sq/ft addition onto his house, I'd love to do it right now, but it's not in my budget. I think we should do housing reform so that I can have as many sq/ft as he has. After all, everyone has the right to have a nice place to live right? Everyone has the right to eat? Everyone has the right to drive a nice car?

Like I said above: don't exaggereate to extremes, not helping your case. Nobody said anything about a "right to nice cars". Tell you what though, no I don't currently make more than $200,000 profit to be affected by the new taxes. But even if I did, I wouldn't complain. I live a comfortable life; I do have a decent car, my motorcycle, all kinds of sports gear, live in a nice place. Beyond that, I'm not obsessed with having, owning, posessing more, more, more. Keeping up with the Jonses (my neighbor extended his house, I want that too) is not important to me AT ALL.

I assume you make >$200,000 profit each year, else why so worried about a tax increase for that income bracket? By any standards, you're wealthy. You should be happy and enjoying your fortune. Instead, look at you guys - all worked up, hateful, jealous of the neighbor, swearing in every post - gosh, sometimes you sound like you're near a heart attack!

My goal in life is happiness and with a comfortable basis, I derive more pleasure out of having time for my family and friends, for my hobbies and out of helping people in need than from acquiring more net worth or things to possess. If I became a multi-millionaire, I'd probably give most of it away to build hospitals and schools in developing countries or help farmers lift themselves out of poverty with microfinance loans and grants. I say that because I've volunteered in an orphanage in Cambodia one summer and the smile of the children we helped to a life they could never have had on their own, is worth more than any house extension, yacht or private jet. Such posessions don't make me a happier person after the first excitement wears off; feeling the gratitude of some less fortunate than me, knowing I made the place I live in a little better for everyone, does.

I know this is hard to understand when I read things like

compassion, or any other such bullshit.

Yes, maybe compassion is a foreign concept to people who push shady rebills onto the unsuspecting, only to proclaim proudly how "I made it myself", thumb their nose at the "have-nots and downtrodden" implying if only they wanted, they could do the same. Well, guess what, in many ways, we (yes, I don't even want to exclude myself) are parasites to this society. Many of us prey on people who are too "stupid" to carefully study pages of fine print before each $2 purchase. But it's many of those people who go to the factories, work shops, offices each day and actually create things. Create value. What value do you create? What would happen if everyone just tried to skim off of others like we do?

 

[hellblazer]

Bush is gone, but a lot of the voters still blindly support everything politicians do based on political party. Your brand of alarmism reinforces these types into thinking that everything is fine when their side is in charge, but that the world is coming to end when the other side is.

Last I checked, conservatives were disgusted with the Republican Party. Leftists, socialists, communists, and radicals like yourself, on the other hand, march in lockstep with the Democrats. The criminals you support would love for you to believe it's those two sides when in fact it's slightly different; the American people versus the radical leftists.

Remember that: what we are witnessing is a battle between the American people and the radical leftists.

The passage of this legislation was enthusiastically hailed by the murderous dictator Fidel Castro as a 'miracle'; Obama must have been thrilled to receive that endorsement from a fellow Marxist thug.

Remember, in order to ram this unconstitutional behemoth legislation through Congress, it was the far left radicals in the Democrat Party that had to bribe, threaten, and coerce the moderates in the Party into voting for it.

There was a bipartisan coalition against this unconstitutional legislation and yet through a combination of bribery, extortion, threats and intimidation, they were able to achieve their crowning victory. How honorable.

Keep drinking the Kool-Aid the far leftists are spoonfeeding you. If millions of Americans across the country are 'alarmed', it's because they're witnessing an administration that shows absolutely no compunctions about committing blatantly unconstitutional and sometimes outright criminal acts. They see a gang of criminals who care not one whit about the rule of law. If millions of Americans are alarmed about the direction their country is headed in, it's not because they're former Republicans or because the Communist-In-Chief has a D next to his name, as your feeble mind would love to believe. It's because unlike you, they're not brainwashed, they can clearly see what's going on, and they would speak out whether the criminal in question had a D or an R next to their name.

Keep regurgitating far left propaganda - you're a good little spokesman for the radical Marxists in the White House. I hope that gives you some sense of self-fulfillment, until they don't need you any more and you realize just what kind of monsters you've been defending.

 

[JustFU]

JustFU and hellblazer, you need to chill and stop whining.

Great! More of the shut the fuck up and take it argument. Good one bro!

Don't act stupid. Both of you. You know that doesn't hold up. Where did I say or imply anything about "every single thing out there"? How does supporting a public healthcare system make anyone a "totalitarian who wants to steal"? Don't exaggerate to such extremes, it only makes you look unreasonable and fanatic.

Your argument in the beginning was that of "it's only fair", how dare some people have health insurance, while others can't afford it.

In reality though, those that genuinely can't afford it, have medicaid. There was no reason at all for the government to step in and take over a whole industry the way they are.

I don't think that anyone has said that people shouldn't have access to medical treatment. What I personally disagree with is the moron of a fucking president all of the sudden setting standards as to what kind of health insurance I can own, when I pay for it myself.

If I have insurance, and don't owe the hospital any money, what gives anyone the right to tell me that I now have to carry a different policy? And what happens if I can't afford the policy they think I should have? Oh that's right, I go on the government plan.

There are private goods, like those groceries, for which a free market and the profit motive is the most efficient platform, no doubt. There are public goods for which a free market is simply not the best or even feasible solution. Look over the list of services I gave above for examples.

The question is, should health care be part of that list or is it a private good? Easy to answer. If it was strictly private, you shouldn't rely on other people to pay for you. You go to the hospital, you pay your own bill. Just like when you go to the grocery store. You can't pay - don't go to the hospital! Every insurance effectively makes other people pay for you. That's the whole idea - people pool their money to mitigate the potentially lethal risk for the individual. So it's not a private good from the onset.[/QUOTE]

Listen, there is no doubt that there is a certain part of the population that can't afford or obtain the health insurance that they need. Just because they are poor, disabled, or otherwise unable to get insurance, doesn't mean that they shouldn't have it.

Our society has for the most part always done the right thing when it comes to giving to the less fortunate. So, I probably would have been in favor of some sort of extended medicaid or a similar program to make sure that there are not sick kids running around dying because their parents couldn't pay for them to see the doctor.

My problem lies in the fact that instead of doing that, they are taking the whole fucking thing over. If I don't fall within the set guidelines, I get fined. WHAT?!?! So, now the government gets to tell me personally what kind of health insurance I need? it's my life, if I want to have shitty insurance, and die because of it, what business is it of theirs?

The whole making it fair thing is going to fucking far. There are now government programs to make sure poor people have fucking cell phones, like it is a necessity.

What exactly do you consider to far?

OK, so at least we should leave that insurance business up to free private enterprise, right?

For people like myself, and millions of others that are happy with what they have, YES!

Whether we like it or not, the government is always imposing new taxes on us, so take my fucking money, do whatever you are going to do with it, and leave me the fuck alone. Is that too much to ask?

Sure, if you want to deal with preexisting condition denials, life-time maximums, annual maximums and all the other crap I listed earlier. Basically anything companies can come up with to take your money as long as you're healthy and bump you off when you get really sick, like paying their analysts bonuses to find reasons to drop you in the middle of expensive chemotherapy. Welcome to for-profit healthcare.

Again, there are millions of people that never have any issue at all with their insurance. So far, I've been one of them. I've gotten sick, had surgeries, my kids have gotten sick, and my insurance took care of what it was supposed to. I'm happy with what i've got. Leave me the fuck alone.

Do you think doctors should go to all that schooling, and pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for an education, and not make a profit? Or for insurance companies to spend millions of dollars on technology and paying salaries, and not make a profit? Or do you just think that someone else should decide what their profit should be?

There's another thing: insurance by nature works better the more people are in the pool. There is almost no point having insurance in the first place when only the sick are in it and the healthy can all waive out. See that guy Matt in the other thread. Why did he not have insurance? "I felt relatively healthy and at this age, naievty got the better of me, thinking I was invincible." There are plenty of peeps like him, and it's because of them that my Kaiser Permanente plan currently costs $196/month, but once I'm 65, the same plan will be $1,190. I can see how this is prohibitive for many elderly folks. I'd much rather want to live in a place where young guys like Matt don't have to come begging for donations and where I won't be forced to give up health insurance when I'm retired. That's why participation should not be voluntary.

Maybe we should lobby for flat rate car insurance to. 18 year olds, and people with 10 DUI's paying the same amount as the 35 year old person with a perfect driving record.

No. My girlfriend doesn't drive. Why should SHE pay for the street that YOU drive on? Can she come to your door and take back the piece she involuntarily paid for, leaving a nice pot hole in front of your driveway? There are plenty of other examples where you are forced to participate whether you directly benefit or not. Just think of all the military spending. Can I please get a tax deduction for opposing war?

It's called Majority. When bills were passed to develop the road systems and establish the military, the majority of people agreed that they were good ideas. Back then, if they would have said fuck the majority, there would have been some serious issues.

Not so with this health care shit. The majority think it is horse shit, and that the government is over stepping. These days though, the government doesn't give a fuck what the majority thinks. In this case, the one side (democrats) couldn't even get all of their side on board without for the most part outright bribing them to go along, the president making promises that he can't keep, or threatening them with a back lash when they were up for reelection. Does that sound like a majority to you?

With such a diverse population of people, we are never going to 100% agree on ANYTHING, that's for sure. However, the general rule of thumb is that the "majority wins". In this case, the majority lost, and more arms got twisted and broken in passing the bill than any other bill in history.

Fuck, even though leading up to the passage the president kept saying that all children regardless of preexisting conditions would be covered right away, when they actually got around to reading it after passing it, it was found out that they wouldn't be covered for almost 4 years. No problem though, they probably just whited it out and noone will ever know any better.

 

[JustFU]

Guess what - the government is not in business to make profit. By its very nature it will take money from people and spend it on public goods that hopefully benefit the country as a whole. Sure, there will always be someone who feels shortchanged (Why should *I* pay for the National Park Service when I live on a fucking island?), but that's how democracy works. Majority rules. If you don't like it or if you think there's too much "mismanagement, fuck ups, and blunders", it's very simple: Elect a different government.

I'll give it to you that they aren't supposed to make a profit, but what the fuck? Is it too much to ask to break even every now and then? Even with the stimulus money that wasn't spent, instead of putting it towards the debt or returning it to us that they jacked it from , they just found some other dumb shit to spend it on.

I like how in that rant there you used the phrase "majority rules" - does it really? Because it sure as fuck doesn't feel like it about now.

You referred to my example of "over-greedy profiteers polluting our rivers". And yes, I absolutely think such excesses must be controlled. We should have a free market, of course, but, to quote JustFU, do "almost everything that we do or don't do as long as our actions don't affect others". If you don't see the sense in that, I invite you to move to China, where in the absence of enforced regulations some "entrepreneurs" don't give a rat's ass about the environment and don't even stop short of poisioning China's babies for their own enrichment. Go breathe the air in Beijing, take a dip in a filthy Chinese lake on your day off, brush your teeth with toxic toothpaste, and have your kids stick lead-painted toys in their mouths.

I'll gladly stay here where I'm protected from this crap by the EPA, FDA and CPB, which are part of a government which of course "never gets anything right."

Nobody said that there shouldn't be regulation. Exaggerate much?

I think if you took a person by person vote of every person in the country the majority would be for keeping the rivers clean, kids healthy, and not to allow toxic toys.

On the other hand, you wouldn't get a majority for this health care bill unless Acorn was the organization going door to door and counting the votes.

See the difference?

Like I said above: don't exaggereate to extremes, not helping your case. Nobody said anything about a "right to nice cars". Tell you what though, no I don't currently make more than $200,000 profit to be affected by the new taxes. But even if I did, I wouldn't complain. I live a comfortable life; I do have a decent car, my motorcycle, all kinds of sports gear, live in a nice place. Beyond that, I'm not obsessed with having, owning, posessing more, more, more. Keeping up with the Jonses (my neighbor extended his house, I want that too) is not important to me AT ALL.

I assume you make >$200,000 profit each year, else why so worried about a tax increase for that income bracket? By any standards, you're wealthy. You should be happy and enjoying your fortune. Instead, look at you guys - all worked up, hateful, jealous of the neighbor, swearing in every post - gosh, sometimes you sound like you're near a heart attack!

Yes, I do make more > $200,000 a year and no I'm not happy with the government finding new ways every day to dig in my pocket. At this point, it would almost make more sense to make $150,000 and call it a year. If only I could bring myself to be a lazy piece of shit, I might actually consider it.

The fact of the matter is, there are always things to buy, and ways to expense your income so that you don't take that much of a hit, but that doesn't make the pill any easier to swallow that because I do well for myself, I'm expected to solve other peoples problems. It doesn't make it any easier to accept that even though I pay for my families health insurance out of pocket, that one of 2 things is going to happen.

1. Uncle Bo might decide it doesn't meet his minimum criteria and I pay a fine.

2. Uncle Bo decided my policy is too good and I pay a penalty for having a cadillac plan.

WTF?!?!

Again, I'm not happy about them digging into my pocket, but they are going to take it anyway, but do they have to fuck with me in the process? Fleece me, and then leave me the fuck alone, that's all I ask.

My goal in life is happiness and with a comfortable basis, I derive more pleasure out of having time for my family and friends, for my hobbies and out of helping people in need than from acquiring more net worth or things to possess. If I became a multi-millionaire, I'd probably give most of it away to build hospitals and schools in developing countries or help farmers lift themselves out of poverty with microfinance loans and grants. I say that because I've volunteered in an orphanage in Cambodia one summer and the smile of the children we helped to a life they could never have had on their own, is worth more than any house extension, yacht or private jet. Such posessions don't make me a happier person after the first excitement wears off; feeling the gratitude of some less fortunate than me, knowing I made the place I live in a little better for everyone, does.

What you just described there shows that you are a compassionate person. Good for you dude. My wife and I give a hefty amount of money per year to a battered womans shelter here where we live, because of an experience that someone in her family went through.

I actually enjoy giving them the money because i know it does alot of good, and as a selfish side note, it makes me feel good to know that I can donate to them the way I do.

What I don't like is being forced to do it. Keep in mind, This bill was passed without a majority, so whose to say that next year they don't pass a law that says if you make 75K a year, "you're wealthy" and should give up a certain percentage of your income to "help others".

It's only a matter of time before some shit like this affects you. Maybe then you will know how it feels.

I know this is hard to understand when I read things like Yes, maybe compassion is a foreign concept to people who push shady rebills onto the unsuspecting, only to proclaim proudly how "I made it myself", thumb their nose at the "have-nots and downtrodden" implying if only they wanted, they could do the same. Well, guess what, in many ways, we (yes, I don't even want to exclude myself) are parasites to this society. Many of us prey on people who are too "stupid" to carefully study pages of fine print before each $2 purchase. But it's many of those people who go to the factories, work shops, offices each day and actually create things. Create value. What value do you create? What would happen if everyone just tried to skim off of others like we do?

Don't lump everyone here into the "rebill group", because that isn't the case. The majority of my money comes from starting businesses and then selling them, which has absolutely nothing at all to do with rebills on any level.

And, the people that you refer to that you think don't do any skimming, skim off of the rebill people you are putting down. They skim legally through assisted housing, food stamps, fee cell phone plans, etc.

The world goes round and round.

I don't think we disagree on the fact that everyone deserves the right to live a healthy life. I think we disagree on the premise that the government has the right to step in at an point in time they want to and force some bullshit on us that we don't want.

I guess when I was younger I didn't really notice it as much, but as i get experience, and get older, it is getting more and more obvious that with every day that passes, we have less and less freedom, which sucks.

When I was talking to my dad the other night, and he was ranting about all of this shit, he was telling me how 40 years ago, you pretty much just lived. If you were broke, you went to the welfare office, they gave you some cash, some food, and made sure you could go to the doctor if you needed to. He said that they bitched about all of the taxes and shit then too, but he said the freedom that he had to just live his life then compared to now was like living on a whole other planet.

Bottom line is, I believe that if you can support yourself, and abide by the laws of the land, you should be left alone. You should be able to have the insurance you want, and just be able to live without worrying about the government making power grabs under the guise of "for the people".

 

[Moxie]

Last I checked, conservatives were disgusted with the Republican Party.

Last I checked, some tea partiers were still wearing Scott Brown shirts to events, despite him voting for the jobs bill in congress and his moderate background becoming more well known.

The criminals you support would love for you to believe it's those two sides when in fact it's slightly different; the American people versus the radical leftists.

Remember that: what we are witnessing is a battle between the American people and the radical leftists.

The passage of this legislation was enthusiastically hailed by the murderous dictator Fidel Castro as a 'miracle'; Obama must have been thrilled to receive that endorsement from a fellow Marxist thug.

Remember, in order to ram this unconstitutional behemoth legislation through Congress, it was the far left radicals in the Democrat Party that had to bribe, threaten, and coerce the moderates in the Party into voting for it.

Socialist senator Bernie Sanders was considering filibustering against it before they added in a provision he wanted. Dennis Kucinich was against it until going on a special plane ride with Obama. Marcia Fudge decided to vote for it after going on the same ride. Fudge went to Cuba last year and smoked cigars with Raul Castro and praised his intelligence.


Socialism? Hardly, Say Socialists - BusinessWeek

 

[JustFU]

Socialism? Hardly, Say Socialists - BusinessWeek

I believe what we are seeing is called "baby steps". I'm pretty sure if he just came out and said, "Minimum wage is now going to be $20 an hour and we are all going to work $20 a week" He would probably get smacked down hard and fast.

But, look at what he's already done?

To some extent taken over part of the automotive industry

Controlling bonuses and pay to certain companies

Forced Bailout money on banks that didn't want it

Given the federal government authority to take banks over

Taken over health care

look at some of his appointments:

New Zeal: Obama File 87 Obama's Socialist Appointees-Where is the Spotlight?

You can say whatever you want about where the news comes from, but you can't argue that these people are not aspiring socialist or full blown socialists just by looking at the organizations that they are a part of, or reading some of what they have said in the past.

Birds of a feather?

 

[Moxie]

I believe what we are seeing is called "baby steps".

Maybe, but the topic title and first post in here were making accusations of more than that.


On the will of the people and majority thing :
FiveThirtyEight: Politics Done Right: Republicans -- Not Obama -- More Often on Wrong Side of Public Opinion

 

[JustFU]

On the will of the people and majority thing :
FiveThirtyEight: Politics Done Right: Republicans -- Not Obama -- More Often on Wrong Side of Public Opinion

So, are you trying to say that if a person by person poll was taken today by anyone other than acorn that the majority would want the bill to be passed?

 

[Moxie]

So, are you trying to say that if a person by person poll was taken today by anyone other than acorn that the majority would want the bill to be passed?

There was this, but mostly I'm pointing out that both parties often vote against public polling. Some of these polls have the public supporting things that could be considered baby steps toward socialism.

 

[JustFU]

There was this, but mostly I'm pointing out that both parties often vote against public polling. Some of these polls have the public supporting things that could be considered baby steps toward socialism.

Your answer somehow suggests that I'm on the republican side lol

I'm on the side that doesn't want to get fucked with. I really could care less whether that side is a D or an R.

All politicians are fuckups, crooks, liars, and scam artists. On their best day, they are for the most part all felons. In this particular case though, none of these retards knew what they were voting for or against, as evidenced by the language left in the bill that said children with preexisting conditions wouldn't be covered for 4 years.

Yes, they are correcting that now, and I'm sure that the kids will be covered regardless of condition, but the fact remains that both sides were voting only on the idea and not the actual substance.

In this case, I wish the R's would have taken it, simply because I think that what was passed is far too radical and is definitely setting a precedent for some fucked up shit to come.

 

[auroinfo]

Let me see if I understand this....

Seems a lot of people think the constitution shouldn't be messed with... yet they are happy to cite amendments made by previous governments?

While I don't doubt these amendments have been a good thing it seems hypocritical to say the constitution shouldn't be changed yet support amendments that have been made to it in the past.

This is ridiculous....... According to all citizens requirement and betterment.... if required.... necessary amendments should be made to have some modifications in the constitution........

_____________________
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Search Engine Marketing Firm

 

[JustFU]

Health Care Bill already bending people over. No doubt jobs will be lost, benefits will be cut, and potentially up to a million people might lose their prescription drug plans.

AT&T to Book $1 Billion Cost on Health-Care Reform (Update3) - BusinessWeek

In a way though, it's kind of funny, because many of these workers are unionized, and played a large part in the fucking of the American public.

Whose getting bent over now? Enjoy your Cadillac taxes and the potential loss of your prescription drugs

Although, I imagine many of them will do what many smart folks will do. Say fuck it, drop all coverage, pay the 2K fine, and then just buy an insurance plan when they need it.

 

[envision]

Your argument in the beginning was that of "it's only fair", how dare some people have health insurance, while others can't afford it.

Nope. It wasn't. I explained that public services can't be paid by voluntary donations alone, then I argued that health care should be part of those public services because - in theory at least - the government's first concern should be the well-being of the people, while a company's first concern is profit, which leads to conflicts of interest and undesirable results. And I defended the consequence of this: participation is not voluntary.

That said, I don't find the fairness idea so utterly unappealing when it comes to healthcare. However, this is different:

Maybe we should lobby for flat rate car insurance to. 18 year olds, and people with 10 DUI's paying the same amount as the 35 year old person with a perfect driving record.

You control your driving habits. If you get DUIs, it's a choice you make. You can choose a luxury vehicle that costs a fortune to insure or a cheap 2nd-hand car. You can move to a city with decent public transport and choose not to drive at all.

With health care it's not so easy. You can live healthily, but usually you don't choose to get sick or not. You don't choose what kind of disease or injury befalls you and how much it costs to treat. You can't choose to stop ageing (would be nice though!) knowing that the elderly have all kinds of ailments.

I have no problem with surcharges for unhealthy behavior - smoking, too much alcohol, overweight when not caused by a genetic disorder etc. - but I do believe people shouldn't be penalized for age. Some slight increase over the years is fine, but not 10-fold over the course of a life.

Is it unfair that some "young invincibles" may subsidize the elderly? Not really if you remember that one day you, too, will grow old and be happy that there is still affordable insurance for you. If everybody was required to have insurance, a) we wouldn't have cases like Matt and b) insurance would not increase so dramatically as you age.

It's called Majority. When bills were passed to develop the road systems and establish the military, the majority of people agreed that they were good ideas.

No, I don't think there were ever bills passed the people could vote on to establish roads and military. Maybe about the details of the Interstate system or whatnot, but not whether to have public roads at all or not. I don't know for a fact though, so prove me wrong if you can. IMO, those are simply examples of public goods, like I explained, that have always been in the hands of governments and forced onto people.

Not so with this health care shit. The majority think it is horse shit, and that the government is over stepping. ... On the other hand, you wouldn't get a majority for this health care bill unless Acorn was the organization going door to door and counting the votes.

First, yes, healthcare hasn't always been a public good in the realm of the government. In most 3rd-world countries it still isn't. But in every single developed country except the United States it is. And I argue it should be.

Second, I'm not the only one to argue that. Far from it. I've seen the polls that say a majority rejects the healthcare bill. I've also seen polls that say a majority supports the healthcare bill. Moxie posted a link, here is another (scroll down to section 12 on pg 4 and look at the Total column: 53% in support). Gallup and the Economist are pretty reputable sources. Still, you can dispute the methodology and call the polls biased. But I can do the same to yours. Fact is - and that's maybe the most important point here - it's not nearly as clear-cut as you'd like it to be. There are millions of Americans who support this reform and it may even be more than oppose it. In that case, you gotta eat your own words: "It's called Majority."

These days though, the government doesn't give a fuck what the majority thinks. ...

I think that's not true. We still have a democratic system where president and congress come up for re-election every four years. It's in any official's own interest to get re-elected and they only get re-elected if a majority supports them. Why would they bite the hand that feeds them? Like I said earlier, if you don't like what they do, vote them out of office!

the president ... threatening them with a back lash when they were up for reelection.

Sorry, but that doesn't make sense. The president doesn't elect congressmen, the people do. Unless he believed that THE PEOPLE would give a backlash if those congressmen didn't support the bill, such a threat would be pretty hollow.


I understand you're worried not so much about the fact that this bill may cost you some money, but that the government gets to tell you what your insurance should be like, that "it doesn't meet his minimum criteria" or "is too good and I pay a penalty for having a cadillac plan".

I highly doubt you have anything to worry about. You think that whatever standards they come up with, your current insurance will not be good enough? You told us you're a wealthy man, so I assume your insurance reflects that. Do you seriously believe they will set such high standards for the whole country that not even people like you meet them?

And on the other end, the "cadillac plans"? First of all, that rule goes into effect in 2018, so you have a full 8 years before anything really affects you. That's a long time including 2 presidential and 3 congress elections. Plenty of chance to vote someone else into office who will strike it down before it goes into effect.

Otherwise, the tax is defined as 40% of the part of the premium that exceeds $10,200 (individual) or $27,500 (family) and to be paid by the insurer. Sure, those extra costs will trickle down somehow, but I'm sure they'd rather adjust the plans with copayments or deductibles to stay under the limit and avoid the tax. And that may not be a bad thing as one of the reasons for that rule was that people with those plans tend to run to the doctor for every little boo-boo. If it curbs unnecessary overuse of medical care, fine with me. And honestly, do you really pay more than $27,500 for health insurance?

there are millions of people that never have any issue at all with their insurance.

Sure, because millions of people also don't seriously get sick. Of course the insurance will love you as long as you're relatively healthy and they can just take your money every month. And with "seriously sick", I don't mean a flu and a sprained ankle. I'm talking about the Matt-type stuff, the quarter-million dollar treatments. Take a survey among those patients about their experience with insurance and I'm sure the result will look quite different.

I'm happy with what i've got. Leave me the fuck alone.

In all likelihood, that's exactly what's going to happen. Keep your insurance, maybe benefit from removed annual/lifetime maximums one day, otherwise just live your life. You may end up paying a bit extra since you're above the income threshold, but you said yourself:

I'm not happy about them digging into my pocket, but they are going to take it anyway ... Fleece me, and then leave me the fuck alone, that's all I ask.

Yeah, that's what I'm gonna do now too. Man, I read all the other politics threads and promised myself I wouldn't get involved. Now, what did I do? Wasting time writing these long-ass posts, that will neither convince you nor change anything. I got better things to do.

And you, man, remember, majority rules, so work on that next election if you must. Until then, remember - at over $200k annually, 97% of Americans need to make do with less than what you got. Be happy about your accomplishment! Loose a bit of that hate and anger, enjoy your wealth, take a vacation and chill. It's better for your health.

 

[JustFU]

And you, man, remember, majority rules, so work on that next election if you must. Until then, remember - at over $200k annually, 97% of Americans need to make do with less than what you got. Be happy about your accomplishment! Loose a bit of that hate and anger, enjoy your wealth, take a vacation and chill. It's better for your health.

Good advice and definitely noted.

Any way you look at it though, the whole process wasn't handled in the spirit that the constitution intended. Not only this bill, but a high percentage of bills in the last several years. So, unless you are actually a person that is happy about the country moving closer to socialism, regardless of whether you are happy about the bill or not, what is happening should be disturbing.

 

[eVandals]

I'm going to write enough content to buy a condo on the moon.