New York rules its cool to look at kiddie porn

the child in the photo is harmed by having their photo exposed over and over again and the pedo seeking the photo out is just as responsible as the man/woman publishing it. . . .

Not sure about you but I would destroy any person that had anything to do with the exploitation of my child. . . via the distributor or the viewer because they co-exist
 


you are subsitutin child porn with the world "something" but the argument is. . .
Change "something" to "anything". Any word.

Why is it criminal to look at kiddie porn?

Why is it criminal to look at mutilated animals?

Why is it criminal to look at Jesus H. Christ?

I am asking what the crime is in looking at something. What harm has been done by looking. What harm can you prove?

If you were in a court, accusing someone of a crime, this is the minimum standard you'd be expected to meet.

is it criminal to view child porn, yes, yes it is wrong to view child porn
Is it criminal, or is it wrong? The latter is a value judgment, the former indicates there was a harm done.

if you were a libertarian you would understand that forcing children into pornography is wrong.
As a libertarian, I know that forcing anyone into anything is wrong.

But that has nothing to do with looking at kiddie porn. Regardless of whether I wanted to see it or not, if you showed me a picture of some kiddie porn, I haven't forced anyone to do anything, have I?

The argument does not go outside of child pornography. .. . I am not arguing that viewing images of cereal or flowers or nature is wrong I am arguing child pornography as wrong/criminal/immoral. . . nothing else nothing more. Consenting adult porn is not criminal child porn is. . . that is the argument do you still not understand that?
I understand what you're trying to say, I am saying that you're confusing your values with a crime.

I don't know how many times I have to repeat for you that non-consensual behavior is bad. It's bad for a whole bunch of reasons.

But you haven't demonstrated that consent is necessary to look at a picture.

If I download a picture from the internet, have I committed a crime?

If yes, against who?

How were they harmed by my download?

This rationale doesn't just apply to kiddie porn, it applies to any media content.

You guys like to treat kiddie porn like it is some sacred domain because it's the children. That's your moral compulsion, it has nothing to do with facts and logic. Like I said earlier, in our past, I am pretty sure our great grandmothers were raped, married and impregnated young, etc. Sexually, we're a super disgusting species IMO. Our capacity for mixing rape, violence and emotional/psychological violation is unmatched in the animal kingdom as far as I know.

But that has nothing to do with what crime someone commits by looking at a picture. Or walking by a house on the sidewalk and looking in the window.

That's because, despite my best attempts to draw out some intelligent discussion, the answer is, there is no crime. The judges in NY made the right call, on purpose or by accident.

Looking at kiddie porn, while sad and disgusting, doesn't hurt the child.

Unless you can prove some way the child is directly harmed by the 90th person to see a photo that wasn't already harmed by the first 89 people to see that picture.

Can you?
 
Change "something" to "anything". Any word.

Why is it criminal to look at kiddie porn?

Why is it criminal to look at mutilated animals?

Why is it criminal to look at Jesus H. Christ?

I am asking what the crime is in looking at something. What harm has been done by looking. What harm can you prove?

If you were in a court, accusing someone of a crime, this is the minimum standard you'd be expected to meet.


Is it criminal, or is it wrong? The latter is a value judgment, the former indicates there was a harm done.


As a libertarian, I know that forcing anyone into anything is wrong.

But that has nothing to do with looking at kiddie porn. Regardless of whether I wanted to see it or not, if you showed me a picture of some kiddie porn, I haven't forced anyone to do anything, have I?


I understand what you're trying to say, I am saying that you're confusing your values with a crime.

I don't know how many times I have to repeat for you that non-consensual behavior is bad. It's bad for a whole bunch of reasons.

But you haven't demonstrated that consent is necessary to look at a picture.

If I download a picture from the internet, have I committed a crime?

If yes, against who?

How were they harmed by my download?

This rationale doesn't just apply to kiddie porn, it applies to any media content.

You guys like to treat kiddie porn like it is some sacred domain because it's the children. That's your moral compulsion, it has nothing to do with facts and logic. Like I said earlier, in our past, I am pretty sure our great grandmothers were raped, married and impregnated young, etc. Sexually, we're a super disgusting species. Our capacity for mixing rape, violence and violation is unmatched in the animal kingdom as far as I know.

But that has nothing to do with what crime someone commits by looking at a picture. Or walking by a house on the sidewalk and looking in the window.

That's because, despite my best attempts to draw out some intelligent discussion, the answer is, there is no crime. The judges in NY made the right call, on purpose or by accident.

Looking at kiddie porn, while sad and disgusting, doesn't hurt the child.

Unless you can prove some way the child is directly harmed by the 90th person to see a photo that wasn't already harmed by the first 89 people to see that picture.

Can you?

Yes, ask the child that did not consent to being molested if it bothers them. . . It will. . . . If you were A.) a parent or B.) now someone that was molested then you would certainly know this answer.


I am A.) a parent and B.) know someone who has been molested. And yes I know they would be harmed by every additional person who has experienced them in a way that they did not intend again get the fuck off you high horse and try being in someone elses shoes. . . I know a girl who has been in this experience and they were devastated to find there photo online for others to view. . . So again yes I do now this has a direct impact on the person in the photo but even a relevant experience to you is not reason enough to admit you are wrong. . . so again defend other people's "rights" to violate other peoples rights all you want it still doesn't make you right
 
So basically, you ignored the entire argument.

*sigh*

I give up. You win the thread.



(see, I even admit defeat.)
 
no you are trying to saying viewing stuff makes no difference I am saying depending on the content of what is viewed makes a world of difference.
 
If it is ok for people to kill others for insults, you can be pretty sure people will be very careful about insulting someone in a community.

That's where I think this philosophy partially falls apart. We are way too subject to overwhelming emotions to simply "be careful" about insulting someone. Like I said, people will kill or use violence if they subjectively think someone is looking at them the wrong way.

You could argue that communities would each have different standards for living and what not, but then the country turns into a darwinian jungle like I said. Certain areas with civil people would exist, and then areas with bandits and thugs would exist in chaos and violence.

Nonsensical to you. To your values.

There is no way to escape subjectivism. Trust me, the Marxists have been trying for 100 years.

I think the escape of subjectivism is evidentialism.

There was a lot of anti-semitism in Europe and America around that time. The prevailing wisdom was that Jews were bad. And people acted consistent with those views.

You can apply the same perspective to slavery, the pre-sexual revolution period, etc.

Right, and they're all examples of irrational behavior.

Rational action is related to knowledge and values, it isn't related to objective truth, except where objective truth is knowledge the actor possesses.

I know what you're saying here, I guess I just disagree. Knowledge is knowing, and knowing is based on evidence. Just like I believe there is an absolute morality (in the human context), there is absolute rationality.

I was just chatting with a friend. His views are close to mine, and he is one of a handful of people outside the libertarian community that I can talk economics and philosophy with. He said that people think he is arrogant (gee, I wonder what that is like) and I told him, "You know the story of Galileo? We're Galileo."

Maybe you're Galileo too. Most days, I am convinced there is more than one human species, and that our physical similarities don't always reflect our intellectual capabilities.

I've been told the same thing (arrogance), but I'm a little too modest to compare myself to Galileo. I can appreciate what he's (your friend) saying though.

The main difference between myself and most people is what I noted; that the older I get the better I become at acting less on emotional impulses. Rarely does someone hurt my feelings with an insult. Death of human beings doesn't phase me in the least.

That being said, emotions are something I still can't escape. I still feel compassion for those less fortunate. I still get angry when I play sports. I still get stressed when things aren't working. I wonder what the next major evolutionary step we take will be. I think Star Trek may have been onto something.

3527211759_22dd796719.jpg


Not sure I understand this.

You argue that values are subjective. I argue that values are objective and that we just don't have enough evidence to make complete (objective) sense of them. We need to know more about the brain.

Absolutely. Values aren't facts. They aren't interchangeable.

How is 2+2=4 not a factual value?

I still need to watch that video.

It's short. But as always it's easy to get sucked into a Youtube black hole for hours. Or to Harris' longer lectures on the topic.
 
That's where I think this philosophy partially falls apart. We are way too subject to overwhelming emotions to simply "be careful" about insulting someone. Like I said, people will kill or use violence if they subjectively think someone is looking at them the wrong way.
Why don't they do this now?

I think it has to do with incentives, which is the realm of economics.

You could argue that communities would each have different standards for living and what not, but then the country turns into a darwinian jungle like I said. Certain areas with civil people would exist, and then areas with bandits and thugs would exist in chaos and violence.
I'm not sure this would necessarily be the case, but let's say it is. Why is this a problem?

People can move to places that are civil, and places without law will continue to be without law.

Different community standards allow different groups of people to co-exist without getting into conflicts over values. I am all for different communities with different values, because I don't want the socialists messing up my capitalist paradise.

I think the escape of subjectivism is evidentialism.
Not sure I understand this.

Right, and they're all examples of irrational behavior.
No. That was rational behavior. Consistent with the facts they understood.

I know what you're saying here, I guess I just disagree. Knowledge is knowing, and knowing is based on evidence. Just like I believe there is an absolute morality (in the human context), there is absolute rationality.
Knowing isn't based exclusively on evidence. If that was true, we would never be able to progress technologically because without evidence, we could never know something new, which makes the unknown, unknowable.

To claim that all knowledge is inductive and not deductive essentially means you don't believe logic exists.

I've been told the same thing (arrogance), but I'm a little too modest to compare myself to Galileo. I can appreciate what he's (your friend) saying though.
People who stand out, take risks, put their neck on the line, stand for something (right or wrong) always get attacked for being arrogant. It is horizontal social pressure, we're hard wired to pull down people who try to rise above and challenge the dominant paradigm. It's an evolutionary defense mechanism that doesn't fit well into the society we're becoming.

The main difference between myself and most people is what I noted; that the older I get the better I become at acting less on emotional impulses. Rarely does someone hurt my feelings with an insult. Death of human beings doesn't phase me in the least.
Some guys here would mistakenly call that autism. Someone like medicalhumor gets so comfortable with me being in control, he is outraged when I show emotion.

I can relate.

That being said, emotions are something I still can't escape. I still feel compassion for those less fortunate. I still get angry when I play sports. I still get stressed when things aren't working. I wonder what the next major evolutionary step we take will be. I think Star Trek may have been onto something.
There is a great book by Neal Stephenson (all of his books are great) called "The Diamond Age". It's a great read on what the future may look like.

You argue that values are subjective. I argue that values are objective and that we just don't have enough evidence to make complete (objective) sense of them. We need to know more about the brain.
I'm not arguing that values are subjective. The entire social sciences believe that values are subjective. Economics since Karl Menger has been about subjectivity and marginal utility.

Your position isn't correct, because for values to be objective, we would need to be omniscient. Basically, God. But if you know everything, you're no longer acting. By removing uncertainty, everything is just following a script.

However, you are right that information (usually) improves decision quality. More information is generally better than less information.

But it is impossible for us to derive perfect choices without becoming God-like.

How is 2+2=4 not a factual value?
2 + 2 = 4 is a fact. It is a verifiable statement. It is logically consistent with itself.

I like chocolate ice cream best is a value statement. You cannot analyze this statement logically.

Man's values are not cardinal, they are ordinal. We basically rate things by their value to us, and so vanilla ranks lower than chocolate ice cream for me. It doesn't rank 3.76892 (a cardinal number) times lower. It is just lower comparatively.

It's short. But as always it's easy to get sucked into a Youtube black hole for hours. Or to Harris' longer lectures on the topic.
I'm just under the gun with a bunch of self-imposed deadlines right now. I want to give it fair consideration.
 
I have to chime in here and say that it's refreshing to see a rational perspective on the issue of child pornography that isn't clouded with hyper-protective emotional garbage.

Why is it that the same people who have such strong reactions to children being exploited for sexual gratification have absolutely no issue with exploiting those same children for political gain?

If you want to snatch some rights away from people in America, all you need to do is find a child to hide behind. I see normal/rational people turn into sputtering, inarticulate primates whenever an issue that is construed as pertaining to the welfare of children comes up, and it makes me sad to think that we aren't nearly as evolved as we'd like to believe.
 
I feel like being engaged in an endless conversation. Writing huge essays in every post. Long forum discussions have a big disadvantage in that the replies are far distanced to each other and it is hard to cross reference.

I feel like striking against a very thick coating of arrogance and delusion. Looks like your mind in a state of jihad against everyone who does not agree with you. Seems like you have no business with being moral or right, just with asserting your arbitrary opinion.

Yes, I suggest that peace is better than violence. I know it is radical.

Agreed that peace is better than violence. So? This does NOT lead to the derivation that anarchy is a good replacement for a government.

And before we went to the moon, we had never been to the moon.

Your point is?

Look, I know it is hard for you to imagine, but there is a future ahead for mankind. If you told people in the 1500s about secular democracy they would have thought you're crazy. If you told people in the 1800s about cellphones, they would have thought you were crazy.

If you told people in 400 AD that women would work, raise families independently and own property, they would have called you an idiot.

I see the survival of man as the inevitable improvement towards consistent ethics. Apparently only a handful of us are aware that the future is not going to be like the past...

Yes, agreed that change is constant. But anarchy is not practical. You are assuming ideal conditions. Democracy also seems great when we assume ideal conditions.

Corporations are created by state legal charter. They wouldn't exist in a free market.

Monopolies are created by the state. Free markets don't limit competition.

Please learn some economics.

You have some impractical imaginations right there.

People do limit and kill competition.

Syndicates, militias, warriors (or corporations) whatever you prefer to call them. They do exist. You live in Canada so it is fair to assume that you haven't felt them roaming around freely.

X may not be perfect. What we have to care about is whether X is better than the other alternatives or not.

Also, the sole purpose of every human action is profit.

Define profit. Do you mean financial profit or gain in just about anything including subjective / emotional gains?

Or maybe I have some idea of what I am talking about, and you don't. That is also a possibility, and based on your posts, a likely one.

Humans are wrong all of the time. I am wrong all of the time. No one is saying otherwise.

Yes, but you know a lot of vocabulary.

Sharia law is islamic common law. I think it is much better than (western democratic) government in a lot of cases, and worse in others. How much do you actually know about Sharia?

I hear you. I have done some reading about it.

So you think it is much better. Would you want Sharia to take over European and American government system in, say, next 50 years?

How do you know where I have traveled, and how I have lived?

So if you've seen all that, you think people deserve that anyway?

People in poor countries don't need financial help. They need markets.

Agreed, but free markets are not an exclusive subset of anarchy.

Tell us what it is I am selling here. Don't be shy, you weren't shy accusing me of doing it.

Don't make accusations and then play games with answers.

I'm not playing games. These endless essays take a lot of energy and thought if one does not want to just discard anything slightly incompatible.

Last few threads. If admins and mods are okay with it, I don't really have 1 cent of an issue with it.

What do you think it is that you are doing?

Honestly, I am trying to help out and blur out the B.S. I apologize if anyone is wrongly hurt

I think it is hilarious you think you can psychoanalyze me based on forum posts. And you think I am deluded. lol

It is possible to analyze you based on hundreds of forum posts. Any person who gives enough thought to it would be able to tell a lot based on the posts.

I have added a ton of content to this topic. You have added none except the opportunistic personal attacks on me. Do you really think you're going to lecture me on who creates more useful content on Wickedfire? lol

Again it never was you vs. me. Check my last post below

I strongly suspect you may have those disorders and I suggest you get a thorough checkup.

Why are you making this you Vs. me? It never was. I'm only giving my honest advice. You will eventually feel better if you take it.


Finally, we have something in common! I have no idea what you are talking about, and I don't think you know what you're talking about either.

Young age influences don't go away the entire life. It matters a lot how your thought process was wired in young age. Maybe that's why jews are so successful.. because they are wired to be innovative right from smart

I haven't been depressed in a long time. My life is great and I am coming off the best year of my life yet.

:thumbsup:

I call you a peasant because it is funny. It's made even funnier that you can't understand the joke.

I think it isn't meant to be a joke in context of your posts when you call people peasants and retards

HAHAHA. What a hypocrite. You judge other people you don't know, but won't allow yourself to be judged in return. That's hilariously predictable.

Feel free to judge and criticize me. I don't think people on here talk publicly about who they are, what they do and the other private stuff. Also I thought you don't care

You are definitely a peasant.

LOL, I am sure you have many lac rupees and many more goats than me.

lol fine

I wake up with a view of three snow capped mountains every day, surrounded by people I love, doing work that I find meaningful, and feeling incredibly lucky to be alive.

What little stress I might have, I come on WF to blow off in STS.

Cool enough. Don't we all do some meaningful work and browse STS at the same time
 
I feel like striking against a very thick coating of arrogance and delusion. Looks like your mind in a state of jihad against everyone who does not agree with you. Seems like you have no business with being moral or right, just with asserting your arbitrary opinion.

Don't take it personal and don't get frustrated, that's just the way his mind works. His condition does not allow him to see things the way most people do, but its not his fault.

Imagine trying to explain to a blind man why the appearance of a car is important. He may insist that the aerodynamics are the only thing that matters, explaining eloquently why fuel efficiency should be the only factor that people consider while buying a car, and how anyone that thinks otherwise is being impractical, etc - sound familiar?

The blind man is incapable of truly understanding why appearance matters, because he can't see it. He also works under the assumption that the value systems of everyone else should be similar to his since it's only practical (after all, he's right about the importance of fuel efficiency). However, you can argue till you're blue in the face, but a blind man will never be able to appreciate the importance of aesthetics to others. To him, it would simply be illogical.

Once you understand that you'll know that the only reason to argue with guerilla is for the sake of others that might be reading it. Now Jake on the other hand - I'd love to get him involved in one of these threads but I can never seem to get him to jump down the rabbit hole...
 
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Don't take it personal and don't get frustrated, that's just the way his mind works. His condition does not allow him to see things the way most people do, but its not his fault.
Actually, not thinking like other people is usually an asset. People who think like everyone else don't have a competitive advantage.

I'm not looking for mass appeal or popularity. I get on well with the small group of people who are discerning thinkers.

Once you understand that you'll know that the only reason to argue with guerilla is for the sake of others that might be reading it.
This is a good tactic, because a lot more people follow what I post than most of the guys in this thread. A good way to get your opinion seen is to post to me or with me.

That said, posting poorly is probably going to help market a perception I don't think you're aiming for. That is, if you think my audience is who you're marketing to.
 
This is a good tactic, because a lot more people follow what I post than most of the guys in this thread. A good way to get your opinion seen is to post to me or with me.

That said, posting poorly is probably going to help market a perception I don't think you're aiming for. That is, if you think my audience is who you're marketing to.

zomg-you-ve-won-internet.gif
 
Actually, not thinking like other people is usually an asset. People who think like everyone else don't have a competitive advantage.

All depends.

Most people choose not to handle poisonous snakes, wrestle lions, swim with hippos, play real life Frogger on the freeway, etc., so although it may seem cool not to think like them, it's also foolish.

Good luck bro.
 
I'd compare trusting the government, courts and my "fellow democrat" as being equivalent to adopting a poisonous snake, playing with a lion, and imitating frogger on a freeway.

I never trust anyone who will use or endorse violence to get me to do what they want.

ymmv
 
I feel like being engaged in an endless conversation.
Be careful what you ask for.

I feel like striking against a very thick coating of arrogance and delusion. Looks like your mind in a state of jihad against everyone who does not agree with you. Seems like you have no business with being moral or right, just with asserting your arbitrary opinion.
You're entitled to your opinion.

Agreed that peace is better than violence. So? This does NOT lead to the derivation that anarchy is a good replacement for a government.
Of course it does. Government is based on violence.

Yes, agreed that change is constant. But anarchy is not practical. You are assuming ideal conditions. Democracy also seems great when we assume ideal conditions.
I'm not assuming any conditions. I'm simply applying logic and my understanding of economics.

People do limit and kill competition.
Not with violence in anarchy.

Define profit. Do you mean financial profit or gain in just about anything including subjective / emotional gains?
All profit is psychological.

So you think it is much better. Would you want Sharia to take over European and American government system in, say, next 50 years?
I never said it was better. I said it was much better at many things and worse at others.

I would like all government to disappear in the next 50 years. Anything else is probably just a sideways move.

So if you've seen all that, you think people deserve that anyway?
I don't think people deserve anything. Nature doesn't discount accidents of birth. I'm lucky to be born where I am. Some people are unlucky to be born where they are. None of us had a choice either way.

Agreed, but free markets are not an exclusive subset of anarchy.
It's the same thing.

Last few threads. If admins and mods are okay with it, I don't really have 1 cent of an issue with it.
Does you feel it is fair to judge me, make claims that I am doing something unseemly or untoward, and then when called on it, refuse to offer specifics?

If you're going to accuse me of something, be a man and come out with it, or go fuck yourself. Understand?

Feel free to judge and criticize me. I don't think people on here talk publicly about who they are, what they do and the other private stuff. Also I thought you don't care
I don't care except to point out that's it's pretty hypocritical for you to judge me personally (my mental health), to judge what I do (how I make money), and then you won't open yourself up to the same criticism.
 
Child porn is gross.
Anyone looking at it should be shot. In the face and penis.

So now only dudes look at CP?

Or are you implying that it is only criminal if men do it, but women get a free pass to get their rocks off to CP all day long without consequence!?!?
 
Ron Paul is not an anarchist (not that I care), but that's kinda irrelevant to the point.
For all intents and purposes, Ron Paul is an anarchist. He supports being able to completely drop out of the system and make a new system.

Humanity is aggressive by nature. Anarchy involves humans and therefore will never be lacking in aggression.
If humans were always aggressive, then you would be correct.

But we're not. We're cooperative a lot of the time.

Even democracy is a marginal improvement over the violence that came before it. At least now people think they have a say in how they are ruled.

One day, they will realize that imposing rulers on each other is counterproductive and unethical.

I find these convos funny. I imagine people had these sorts of discussions about integrating blacks into civil society 200 years ago.