New York rules its cool to look at kiddie porn

Guerilla: He believes that he is right, and he has the right to compel others, and that right makes it ok for him to use violence against anyone who disagrees with him.


Im not sure i saw this in his argument.

But we all know a court backed up with military power has Authority, one might not like said authority but its there.

Like a cop has authority, given by the people, community.....nation...

Like Guerilla has on white hat site making, and has authority on this site in terms of following in more white hat sites, linking ideas etc...
 


I accepted the definition you posted.

I am still waiting for you to explain why the courts have authority.

Because the citizens have given the authority to them by way of paying taxes to the government and using services and infrastructure provided by the government. I know you want to turn this into a debate about the morality of government authority, but that's not going to happen.

Most parents of children strongly support this authority and perhaps since you don't have children you have not gained enough incite into how children think in order to speak on the matter intelligently.

However, the majority of people agree that children do not have the mental capacity to consent and coincidentally, that is the law of the land. You seem to disagree, although you have declined to provide an age at which you think children should have the ability to consent.

Since we already have an accepted legal standard that is supported by the vast majority of the populace, the onus to provide an alternate system of determining consent is on YOU, not me. As a father, I'm quite happy with the definition of consent.
 
Guerilla: He believes that he is right, and he has the right to compel others, and that right makes it ok for him to use violence against anyone who disagrees with him.


Im not sure i saw this in his argument.
Sure it's there. He keeps bringing up the courts, even though he can't explain why an American court that says 18 is any more right than a European court that says 14, or an Islamic court that has no age limit defined at all.

He can't because there isn't a good answer, but it is what he knows, and it is what he believes in, and if war is any example, people will kill people they don't know over what they believe in.

But we all know a court backed up with military power has Authority, one might not like said authority but its there.
Right, the authority comes from violence. Not logic. Not virtue. Not consent. Coercion.

Like a cop has authority, given by the people, community.....nation...
"The people" don't exist. Individuals exist. Consent cannot be given by part of a group applicable to an entire group.

Like Guerilla has on white hat site making, and has authority on this site in terms of following in more white hat sites, linking ideas etc...
No, I may have some perceived SEO authority on this website, but it is not because if people don't listen to me I will lock them in a cage or rape room. It's because I have earned trust, and anyone who trusts me does so of their own free will.

You're confusing a legitimate "authority" with someone who intimidates people with rules, force and pomp.
 
Just a quick note:

I brought up military power etc.. in a lot of my posts, however i dont think authority only comes from that type of power.

When i say the people, i mean voters, if they want to give a court authority.. they can ...

Maybe the conversation is off a little, question might be... do we want to give court(s) powers to stop Adults meaning over 18 from having "sex" with those XX years old or not.
Im not going to define sex here... we all know there is more then just intercourse.
 
Right, the authority comes from violence. Not logic. Not virtue. Not consent. Coercion.

As a parent, I'm OK with using all of those things against anybody that victimizes children. One day you'll understand.

We'll never agree on this and I've got shit to do. I'll check back in with you later and swat you around some more though when I get bored. With that I'm out.
 
Because the citizens have given the authority to them by way of paying taxes to the government and using services and infrastructure provided by the government.
Taxation is theft. A slave who accepts food from his master doesn't accept his slavery.

"The citizens" is a meaningless concept, first because there are no citizens by definition and two because so-called group consent (abstractions) do not equal consent for the individual.

I know you want to turn this into a debate about the morality of government authority, but that's not going to happen.
Then stop talking about the courts. You're the one who brought government into this discussion, not me. I simply asked what was criminal about looking at something (to which none of you have been able to answer...)

Most parents of children strongly support this authority
Irrelevant because according to your rationale, parents cannot provide consent for their children and so don't have a say in what the courts decide about kids. Right?

perhaps since you don't have children you have not gained enough incite into how children think in order to speak on the matter intelligently.
This is a logical fallacy.

However, the majority of people agree that children do not have the mental capacity to consent
The majority of people once believed the earth was flat. If we're to believe post-war history, the majority of Germans believed that the Jews were an inferior species. Most Americans believed that blacks were only useful as slaves and not free men. Most people believed that women did not have a right to own property.

Do I need to go on?

Logical fallacy again. Appeal to popularity.

that is the law of the land.
Appeal to authority.

You seem to disagree, although you have declined to provide an age at which you think children should have the ability to consent.
I don't think there is an arbitrary age that can be applied to all children at which we have determined they all can and will consent effectively, which is why your argument, on it's face, is a farce.

Since we already have an accepted legal standard that is supported by the vast majority of the populace
Appeal to popularity again, more logical fallacy...

the onus to provide an alternate system of determining consent is on YOU, not me.
No, the burden of proof is still on you. You're the one making positive claims.

You can't hide behind, "Everyone thinks like me" as a justification for your argument.

As a father, I'm quite happy with the definition of consent.
The funny thing about you, despite the fact that you obviously reason so illogically (as above) is that you've been screwed over by the courts and legal system, and yet in some bizarre case of stockholm syndrome, you're actually their defender.

It's amazing how much strength residual tyranny (horizontal social pressure) has on the victims.
 
When i say the people, i mean voters, if they want to give a court authority.. they can ...
So if Germans vote to give a court authority to move Jews to camps, that's ok because the voters gave that authority?

It's interesting that people haven't read or understood the Declaration of Independence. You can only give the government the powers which you the individual have. They can act as your agent. They cannot be sanctioned by you to do something you cannot because you don't have the capacity to sanction it.

So where is the authority for the court to determine the age of consent?

Who gave the court the authority to act upon a 5 year old boy or girl? Who had authority over that boy or girl to give that authority to the court?

I realize, I am not exactly talking to a Mensa chapter meeting here, but really folks, a little bit of thinking can go a long, long way.
 
You can't make a case for viewing kidding porn being criminal.

But you can make a case for it being immoral and leading to a perpetuation and erosion of values.

Of course, none of this has anything to do with the free market. I don't know if guerilla believes in the existence of morality.
 
I don't know if guerilla believes in the existence of morality.

There is no such thing as morality. Morality is a construct that humans have created. Furthermore, what is moral and what isn't moral is determined by evolution and not by what is truly right or wrong.

If believing that genocide was moral is a genetically superior trait we would all believe that genocide is moral.
 
There is no such thing as morality. Morality is a construct that humans have created. Furthermore, what is moral and what isn't moral is determined by evolution and not by what is truly right or wrong.

If believing that genocide was moral is a genetically superior trait we would all believe that genocide is moral.

Don't even get started on whether there is morality or not. I will trounce your "morality has evolved" position and then some.
 
Of course, none of this has anything to do with the free market. I don't know if guerilla believes in the existence of morality.
The free market has a simple morality which most people do not want to observe.

Only voluntary (consensual) interactions are free, free market and moral.

As to the issue of what age constitutes a child, it's actually irrelevant to the question of if the child cannot consent, then surely the parent claims they can consent as a guardian. Or in UG's case, his children are being raised by the court system which apparently has power over his children he does not have as a parent.

If parents can consent for their small children, then parents can consent to their kid being involved in kiddie porn. Outside of Detroit, if one actually travels, you can see parents who put their kids into prostitution in other countries, because this is a way the kids can contribute to keeping the family fed, housed and alive.

Be thankful we live in a technologically advanced society where we aren't forced to make choices like that.
 
There is no such thing as morality. Morality is a construct that humans have created. Furthermore, what is moral and what isn't moral is determined by evolution and not by what is truly right or wrong.
By this rationale, all psychological constructs do not exist. Not sure if I believe that.

I agree, there is no fundamental (or objective) right and wrong. But we are emotional creatures who rely on psychological constructs to interpret reality, and so rules which are congruent with one another are helpful towards taking purposeful action.
 
By this rationale, all psychological constructs do not exist. Not sure if I believe that.

I agree, there is no fundamental (or objective) right and wrong. But we are emotional creatures who rely on psychological constructs to interpret reality, and so rules which are congruent with one another are helpful towards taking purposeful action.
I mostly agree with that.

Morality is definitely useful (it must be or else we wouldn't have evolved to make use of it), but it doesn't really exist besides our perception that it exists.
 
Morality is definitely useful (it must be or else we wouldn't have evolved to make use of it), but it doesn't really exist besides our perception that it exists.
Right. That's the core issue UG and mattseh don't understand. Their psychological perception is subjective, not objective, no matter how strongly they feel about that perception.
 
Right. That's the core issue UG and mattseh don't understand. Their psychological perception is subjective, not objective, no matter how strongly they feel about that perception.

So, if I understand you right, because you believe that each person's moral beliefs are strictly an internal subjective perception any attempt by police, governments, etc. to incarcerate or stop any behavior is wrong, correct?
 
I haven't read the back and forth in here so don't know if this has been addressed directly, but I just checked out the papers for this ruling and the crucial thing here is:



"Federal Courts have held that for digital images toconstitute evidence of knowing possession of child pornography,such images must be connected to something tangible (e.g., thehard drive), as they are when stored in a cache, and that thedefendant must be aware of that connection (see United States vRomm, 455 F3d 990, 1000 [9th Cir 2006] ["to possess the images inthe cache, the defendant must, at a minimum, know that theunlawful images are stored on a disk or other tangible materialin his possession"];"

Which is very strange in itself. This means we could see entire court battles based on trying to prove or disprove that the defendant knows what a cache is...
 
So, if I understand you right, because you believe that each person's moral beliefs are strictly an internal subjective perception any attempt by police, governments, etc. to incarcerate or stop any behavior is wrong, correct?
You have two things going on here.

So, if I understand you right, because you believe that each person's moral beliefs are strictly an internal subjective perception
I don't think is up for debate. It's pretty well understood that everyone's psychological experiences are unique.

any attempt by police, governments, etc. to incarcerate or stop any behavior is wrong, correct?
I think incarceration is stupid. I think that the police are thugs and governments are criminals themselves.

Now, if you're asking if I think people should be able to defend themselves from harm, yes. I think they should be able to.

When it comes to what is and is not criminal, I am all about corpus delecti.
 
I don't think is up for debate. It's pretty well understood that everyone's psychological experiences are unique.

True, but wouldn't you agree that there are objective things happening outside of all of us, such as the rising of the sun each day? A person can believe the sun didn't rise this morning but that wouldn't really make it so, right? What makes you put morality in the "subjective" category instead of the "objective" one?

I think incarceration is stupid. I think that the police are thugs and governments are criminals themselves.

Now, if you're asking if I think people should be able to defend themselves from harm, yes. I think they should be able to.

When it comes to what is and is not criminal, I am all about corpus delecti.

I have no problem with this.
 
I think incarceration is stupid. I think that the police are thugs and governments are criminals themselves.


Now, if you're asking if I think people should be able to defend themselves from harm, yes. I think they should be able to.


When it comes to what is and is not criminal, I am all about corpus delecti.


If incarceration is stupid, what do you propose as the more intelligent alternative?