New York rules its cool to look at kiddie porn

[guerilla]

And that is why society has laws. My values may interfere with yours, so to maintain order we've developed laws and those laws constantly evolve.

Society has laws because they lower transaction costs and provide an effective social control mechanism for the people who own you.

I see the value of society knowing what is allowed rather than having to guess what everyone's individual values will allow them to do.

You only need one universal value, and that is non-violence.

But you are defending child porn. You think you're defending the right of people to view it, but if you follow that to its logical conclusion that porn has to be produced somewhere. And based on your quote below, you do support a child's right to do porn:

This is why you will never be a libertarian. You're intolerant. It's not about tolerating things you don't like, but having a principle that what other people do of their own free will is ok as long as it doesn't hurt others.

You don't have a principle like that. You think that people should be prohibited from doing peaceful things of their own free will, and this justifies you or your agents using force against them. You're really no different than a religious zealot except that instead of using divine revelation as your rationale, you use the "we decided on these rules" stuff of hiding in a group.

People like kiddie porn. People have probably always liked kiddie porn. I am pretty sure in our past, one of our great grandmothers was raped, or knocked up at the age of 13 or 14. Sexually, we're a pretty disgusting species sometimes.

Now since we know that people are going to want kiddie porn, and that there are going to be people happy to produce kiddie porn (for fun or profit) then the question becomes, what's a rational, intelligent, progressive and useful response to such a situation?

That is the crux of the disagreement. I do not think a child has the mental capacity or experience to make good decisions

That's what you think. Some people think you shouldn't smoke pot. Or have a couple beers and drive. Or you shouldn't smoke in a restaurant.

It's only what you think. Even if 100 billion people believed it, it would still only be what you think.

So we have laws to protect them from that. You and I will never agree on that point, and I'm OK with that.

Laws don't protect people. Stop being naive.

 

[guerilla]

Valuable advice for you

Do you know why people don't listen to you?

 

[guerilla]

But you seem like a sharp guy guerilla, so you realize that even though the logic leads to an obvious conclusion, you know that the vast majority can't separate emotion, and arrive at imperfect conclusions, doubly complicated by the above quote that rationality itself is subjective.

This was good until you said "imperfect conclusions" because this implies perfect conclusions are possible.

They are not.

You're making the same mistake the gunman makes.

So people are emotional and irrational, and will also act in their own self interest. While that doesn't invalidate logic, it seems to remove the ability to live in a society where logic dominates, especially over the long term.

The earth was always round, even when people thought it was flat.

That makes the theory nice, but practically useless.

This is funny stuff. I see it all the time. People talk about "reality" and the "real world".

Basically, you're saying that what people think always trumps reality, making science and the physics of the universe invalid.

Obviously, not a very clever position to stake out.

Not to mention, by claiming the theory is useless, you're back to some sort of value objectivity.

It seems that to coexist peacefully as a society, we have to be able to create boundaries and guidelines for the whole, and those rules must be in harmony with the opinion of the majority.

This is the myth that rulers like to teach people in public schools.

So people are emotional and irrational, and will also act in their own self interest. While that doesn't invalidate logic, it seems to remove the ability to live in a society where logic dominates, especially over the long term.

Emotional != irrational.

Self interest is rational.

Logic is just congruence with the facts.

Perhaps you should do more reading into this subject. You're welcome to PM me about it.

 

[jacky8]

Do you know why people don't listen to you?

Typical clever response. You are smart enough to take things off-topic when you are called out on your bullshit. But, save this style for the innocents and noobs.

My advice is more for you than for "people". Enough smart ones listen to me. They are probably not loud mouthed like you. Quality matters, not quantity.

And I don't necessarily need attention of a lot of members or "retards", as you like to call the members of this forum. Talk about shitting where you eat. Maybe you should go back to selling $10 signatures on DP

Just because someone may "like" your post does not mean they "listen" to you. Talk about delusions

Take my advice mate. And, get treatment for your aspergers. I'm just trying to help you. I'm not witty like you

 

[Jon]

One of the best and most eloquently written back and forth debates on here in a very long time, if ever even... over one of the most fucked up topics, ever.

Child porn is gross.
Anyone looking at it should be shot. In the face and penis.
End of story.

 

[jacky8]

@guerilla:

Now go on, block me and show off your "ignore list" in your signature like a [insert your typical offensive words here]

I'll rephrase my advice here.

- Stop the hypocrisy. Apply your beliefs on yourself first before preaching them to others.

- If you're able to reduce your hypocrisy, you'll be more consistent in what you say and do.

- Consult a doctor for your likely medical condition (hint: autism, aspergers)

- Stop living in the little dream world from your armchair. Go out and check out the real world.

- Finally, stop making sales and commission threads outside BST section.

- Stop calling the members "retards" and "peasants". You monetize the maximum out of this place and shit on it at the same time. You can always go back to selling sigs on DP

I wish you good luck (with your good intentions) mate. See my other posts above. I'm only trying to help you recover from your delusions.

 

[ThisWebThing]

Mom accused of pimping 2 girls

 

[guerilla]

Typical clever response.

Actually, I was just asking you a question.

Just like I asked what was illegal about looking at something.

Plenty of cowards in this thread who don't want to address the core issues, and instead want to hand wave about majorities, the people, the citizens and "reality".

Doesn't bother me. I know who my constituency is.

 

[SUP3RNOVA]

I've enjoyed reading this thread. I'm not sure that guerilla will see this since he "blocked" me after our last conversation, but I've been waiting for a while to see him post a tangible idea. Most of his posts are useless philosophical drivel with "theory of minds" and shit like that. He will find a philosophical construct or logical fallacy to "prove you wrong" without ever offering an argument himself that isn't purely theoretical.

While often times he does bring up good points that are communicated very eloquently (causing the ridiculous dick-sucking), it's almost never practical.

That's up to the injured party to decide. Some injured parties may settle for less. They may even forgive the accused.

What if the injured party decides to kill or torture the criminal? Who enforces that the punishment fits the crime? I can't see this sort of law enforcement being anything short of pure chaos and a darwinian jungle.

You're making the assumption (as you stated) that most people are rational. I'd say a short study of human history would provide the evidence that we are mostly irrational. Humans kill other humans over simply looking at each other the "wrong" way.

people who didn't make good when they caused harm would be isolated. People would stop dealing with them, insurance companies wouldn't cover them, banks wouldn't work with them.

Who keeps a database of these known criminals? What prevents the criminal from simply moving to another town where the population doesn't know he's a criminal?

 

[guerilla]

- Consult a doctor for your likely medical condition (hint: autism, aspergers)

It is funny you think that you can diagnose people's disorders on an internet forum. lol

- Stop living in the little dream world from your armchair. Go out and check out the real world.

I should come to India and visit you. See how a real forum badass lives, amirite?

- Finally, stop making sales and commission threads outside BST section.

I don't do this, but I probably could and get away with it.

You monetize the maximum out of this place and shit on it at the same time.

I can honestly say I haven't made a nickel from Wickedfire in 2012.

Start a poll about who has put more into this community, you or me. Then when you win, you can lecture me about who does what around here.

Meanwhile, keep hating. All haters are winners.

You can always go back to selling sigs on DP

I might start selling my sig on Wickedfire soon.

BacklinkFUEL! The CTRs are unreal.

I wish you good luck (with your good intentions) mate. See my other posts above. I'm only trying to help you recover from your delusions.

The funny thing is, you didn't demonstrate one delusion.

Jacky8, you're lucky you're able to post here. You're lucky you're able to sell here. You confuse both of those facts with being smart and insightful.

Look around. You're not the one who is winning.

___


Keep the personal attacks coming guys. It means I am right, or you're incapable of discussing my argument heads on. I love it, because your behavior confirms what I already know.

 

[guerilla]

I've enjoyed reading this thread. I'm not sure that guerilla will see this since he "blocked" me after our last conversation, but I've been waiting for a while to see him post a tangible idea. Most of his posts are useless philosophical drivel with "theory of minds" and shit like that. He will find a philosophical construct or logical fallacy to "prove you wrong" without ever offering an argument himself that isn't purely theoretical.

While often times he does bring up good points that are communicated very eloquently (causing the ridiculous dick-sucking), it's almost never practical.

I read your post and I would have replied. But you posted this crap, which served no purpose towards understanding, and was all about your past butthurt.

When you want to have a discussion like an adult, PM me. I'm interested in talking to adults, less interested with talking to angry children who can't handle the truth.

PS, I thought you were leaving this forum?

 

[SUP3RNOVA]

There is no such thing as morality. Morality is a construct that humans have created.

Morality is just a word used to describe something. It is a thing, it's the attempt to discern what is "good" vs what is "bad" and apply that to our daily life. We created morality because we've evolved to the point where we can recognize and understand it.

Furthermore, what is moral and what isn't moral is determined by evolution and not by what is truly right or wrong.

Evolution is the progress towards more profitable states. As long as we can agree on the assumption that more profitable states are better than less profitable states, you could say that we evolve towards what is truly right. It's not like they're mutually exclusive.

If believing that genocide was moral is a genetically superior trait we would all believe that genocide is moral.

But we don't, because it's immoral.

 

[SUP3RNOVA]

But you posted this crap, which served no purpose towards understanding, and was all about your past butthurt.

It has nothing to do with being butthurt, it serves as proof that you can dish out insults but can't take anything in return without yourself being butthurt to the point of not responding.

You have no problem with calling people peasants, assholes, conformists, irrational, or illogical. But the second somebody calls you impractical,

I can agree with you that it's childish but can't help but point out your hypocrisy.

PS, I thought you were leaving this forum?

I've covered that one, ya that was a downright lie and was a cranky thread incited by the devolution of this forum. I have been limiting my time here though and have cut back on pointless posts that are purely "dicking around".

 

[MSTeacher]

Child porn is gross.
Anyone looking at it should be shot. In the face and penis.
End of story.

Can I like this post twice?

 

[jonas33h]

This is why you will never be a libertarian. You're intolerant. It's not about tolerating things you don't like, but having a principle that what other people do of their own free will is ok as long as it doesn't hurt others.

Really? Libertarians are acceptable of kiddie porn? This is the only rational conclusion that anyone can make about this statement since this is the topic of "intolerance" we are currently discussing, so it would only be logical for anyone to assume this.

Now by this statement we have learned at least one thing. You don't seem to have a problem with an old fuck approaching a child offering them candy in return for finding his distressed puppy or kitty and then brutalizing that child in the worst way imaginable during a persons most vulnerable years of existence. I would then imagine this is followed by a threat much like if you tell mommy or daddy about our secret they will not love you anymore. None of this sounds like consent to me.

This is why I have said numerous times the shit you spew when strung together is no more than hypocritical dribble that refutes itself. You don't think this stuff hurts think again.

If I ever have the chance of encountering a pedo I will know of three people that will be hurt by that sick bastards actions: the most impacted the child, second most impacted will be the pedo after I break every possible thing on him (then claim stand my ground), and then I will feel hurt for the child (wouldn't matter who's kid it is. If you have children you should understand that.)

And I guess we also learned that you truly don't know the difference in right and wrong which proves that people are irrational and anarchy can work. So cool story bro.


And you never answered if my scenario of wanting to keep the pedo for my own irrational payback is exceptable and if it is not who is going to enforce me not doing what I see just if there are no rulers? Or what would be done if I did it anyway. . .

 

[jonas33h]

One of the best and most eloquently written back and forth debates on here in a very long time, if ever even... over one of the most fucked up topics, ever.

Child porn is gross.
Anyone looking at it should be shot. In the face and penis.
End of story.

Most direct to the point post in this debate.


well done!

 

[guerilla]

Child porn is gross.

I wouldn't know, I have never looked at any.

Anyone looking at it should be shot. In the face and penis.

I'll repeat my first post in this thread.

What is the crime in looking at something?

There isn't one. You'd just feel better about the world if violence happened to people who did things you find disgusting. There are people who hate blacks and gays who feel the same way about things they don't like.

 

[jonas33h]

In some states LOOKING is a crime or this wouldn't even be news. YOU keep over looking this and the New York legislator has already said they plan on passing a law to make this illegal.

 

[guerilla]

Really? Libertarians are acceptable of kiddie porn?

I don't know how many times I can repeat, that a real libertarian has no problem with other people doing things which are consensual and voluntary.

None of you guys have been able to articulate why it would be otherwise. UG sort of tried by saying the courts made the call, but again, no one can rationalize why it is ok to stop someone from doing something that isn't hurting anyone else.

None of this sounds like consent to me.

Then I wouldn't be ok with it, would I?

See how simple the idea of non-aggression is?

This is why I have said numerous times the shit you spew when strung together is no more than hypocritical dribble that refutes itself. You don't think this stuff hurts think again.

Actually, I think that the stuff I post is over most of your heads. And people get angry at me for posting it, or asking incisive questions because it sucks when someone points out uncomfortable truths. And I realize that. If I wanted to kiss your asses, I wouldn't post what I do. I would be sucking off Ron Paul and making boobie posts.

But that's not me. I challenge ideas. People who like to think, engage me over it. People who don't like to think, freak out, posting attacks and lies.

And I guess we also learned that you truly don't know the difference in right and wrong which proves that people are irrational and anarchy can work. So cool story bro.

None of my ideas matter to you and I would say, you don't matter to any of my ideas. The world kept on turning even when people thought it was flat. There are worse things one can be than a very poor man's Galileo.

And you never answered if my scenario of wanting to keep the pedo for my own irrational payback is exceptable and if it is not who is going to enforce me not doing what I see just if there are no rulers? Or what would be done if I did it anyway. . .

I didn't see it, and I can barely understand what you wrote to me.

Watch this.

The Solution, Schaeffer Cox Speaks on the Future of the Liberty Movement - YouTube

That will explain to you how a private legal system has worked in the past, and might work again. It's not comprehensive, but it's a start.

 

[guerilla]

It has nothing to do with being butthurt, it serves as proof that you can dish out insults but can't take anything in return without yourself being butthurt to the point of not responding.

I don't have a problem with being insulted. I think namecalling is hilarious.

You have no problem with calling people peasants, assholes, conformists, irrational, or illogical. But the second somebody calls you impractical,

I can agree with you that it's childish but can't help but point out your hypocrisy.

Actually, the reason why I didn't like your post, and I don't like many posts is that they are intellectually dishonest. I would rather you tell me you're going to rape my female family members than waste my time by handwaving at a serious discussion, while claiming to be engaging that serious discussion. That's pretty much why everyone who is on my ignore list, is on my ignore list.

You don't have to agree with me. You don't have to like me. The only thing I look for is honesty. Posting a bunch of logical fallacies that one knows are logical fallacies, or making personal attacks, or dodging the substance of the topic aren't arguing in good faith.

And people who argue in bad faith, piss me off. You got me there. I have a short fuse for it.

I've covered that one, ya that was a downright lie and was a cranky thread incited by the devolution of this forum. I have been limiting my time here though and have cut back on pointless posts that are purely "dicking around".

I don't blame you. There are a lot of peasants, assholes, conformists etc on this forum.

What if the injured party decides to kill or torture the criminal? Who enforces that the punishment fits the crime? I can't see this sort of law enforcement being anything short of pure chaos and a darwinian jungle.

I linked a video in my last post. It will give you some ideas.

That topic is a lot deeper though, it's hard to go into it in a forum thread about looking at kiddie porn.

Insurance-type agencies would compete for dispute resolution and other similar services. David Friedman talks about this in "Machinery of Freedom" which is free online.

You're making the assumption (as you stated) that most people are rational.

No. Man is a rational actor. We're just using different definitions.

If you ask people to define rational/irrational, they won't be able to explain them consistent with value subjectivity.

I'd say a short study of human history would provide the evidence that we are mostly irrational. Humans kill other humans over simply looking at each other the "wrong" way.

First, avoid attributing motive, because you can't know how the brain of another person is working.

Second, people act consistent with their psychological experience. The only exceptions might be people being influenced by stimulants, overwhelming emotion or who have some sort of brain damage or disorder.

Who keeps a database of these known criminals?

Sounds like a great business opportunity. People will pay for that data. Particularly employers.

What prevents the criminal from simply moving to another town where the population doesn't know he's a criminal?

That might have happened 50 years ago, but it's almost impossible today, and I think it will be totally impossible 20 years from now.