No More Income Taxes in the US?!

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Squirrelinabox said:
Again, none of that relates to the linked video and/or paying income tax. As for the 8% VAT, that's a lot lower than most other counties I believe.
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goddamn it, have a little more foresight. If the government didn't spend billions a year subsidizing revolutionary groups in Thailand or Haiti, then we wouldn't have to pay so much money in income tax - how much clearer does it need to be?
Besides, is there some unwritten rule that prohibits me from diverging from the topic of the video?
 


Squirrel how can you be that dense? Spending billions a year on stuff we don't need has a lot to do with this topic.

This whole issue is not going to fix itself. As someone mentioned earlier the government will not regulate itself. It will just get bigger and bigger until the people who gave it it's power stops being complacent.

The first step is informing people on the subject. People should know what their rights are, and how their money is being spent. I would be shocked if the American people aren't outraged over the REAL ID coming in the few years. But I bet most people have never even heard of it.

We are still one of the best nations in terms of freedom but if anyone thinks our dear government is going to continue to play nice without us watching it, they are deluding themselves.

What's worse is that too many American think we can't do anything. That's the biggest lie right now, but it will be true if we continue to be complacent. The government should be afraid of it's people, not the other way around.
 
DruSam said:
The government should be afraid of it's people, not the other way around.
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The government doesn't have to be afraid now that their will be electronic voting all over the country, they just pick a leader and be done with it, the votes won't mean shit, unless their is a few million people who all stand up at once, nothing will ever change and they will do whatever they feel they must do.
 
Dense huh? Ok, let me put it a little simpler for you guys.

Does more government expenses (ie, foreign wars) increase the need to tax? Obviously yes. I never said that it doesn't. What I'm saying is that everybody jumping on this video's bandwagon need to get their own opinions straight. If you believe the government is in to many countries right now, then THAT is what's wrong in your opinion, NOT that paying an income tax is bad.

Also, is the economy broken? I honestly don't know, I don't have nearly enough facts or econ education to begin to know. However, again, the economy being broken is one thing, not paying your income taxes because some dumb video says you don't have to is another.

Stanley, of course you can diverge from the original topic, but when you respond to an argument of mine and quote me while doing so, you're own argument should probably be related... you know? Intelligent debat/discussion of a serious topic and all that.

DruSam, like I said already, I'm not saying wars, and the economy in general don't have an impact on taxes. I'm also not saying that we shouldn't keep our government in line. I'm merely responding to Jon's initial post and the video itself. Like I said in my first post, I was going to ignore this completely, but it seems to be spreading rather quickly. You mention that people need to be informed... duh. People should also learn to think for themselves. Everybody is jumping onto this video going "OMG, we don't have to pay taxes. Our government is stealing from us!!!". That's BS. We DO have to pay taxes, well at least unless we want to chance going to jail. Yes, some people got out of it because some feeble minded jurors fell for the "show us the law" line that's repeated a million times in the video. My point is the fact that there is no written law for it doesn't change the fact that decades have gone by with our government running off the idea that there IS a such thing as an income tax law. If we strip it away, our economy will likely suffer much more than what everybody is bitching about now. Sure, it'd be nice if there were an actual written law and it'd be great if Congress could go ahead and pass one, but if they did, you all would then cry out "OMG, SEE!!! We've been ripped off this whole time! We want all our money back!" The law is implied. If you choose not to pay, you are doing so knowing full well that you are going to bring the IRS and the government down on you. Also, if you choose to not pay, you are screwing over those that do pay taxes.

Dense? Uh... please.
 
Aequitas said:
The government doesn't have to be afraid now that their will be electronic voting all over the country, they just pick a leader and be done with it, the votes won't mean shit, unless their is a few million people who all stand up at once, nothing will ever change and they will do whatever they feel they must do.
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Ok, so how should it all work then? Every person has a vote (ok, every person of age, that's not in jail, and that meets a few other requirements). I don't believe there has been a system in history that's been anywhere near as fair. Obviously, your one vote really doesn't count. Ok, so it counts as 1, but no election has ever been decided by one vote. However, if every person with your similar beliefs decides that their votes don't matter, then as a whole, your group could potentially lose elections.

Bush's approval rating is in the mud right now. However, he was re-elected by the majority. If he could run again, he'd lose. Why? Because he would be held accountable for his actions and most people right now don't like his actions. In that sense, the system does work. Obviously there's underhanded things going on that we may never know about, but it sure seems to work pretty well, especially when you try and think of alternatives.
 
I watched the whole thing and the longer I watched it the more angry I got. I'm pissed as hell right now. I believe that our current Government no longer has our interest in mind.
 
Squirrelinabox said:
What I'm saying is that everybody jumping on this video's bandwagon need to get their own opinions straight. If you believe the government is in to many countries right now, then THAT is what's wrong in your opinion.
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First off you draw a dangerous line when you say this, I feel like your basically telling me that my OWN opinion doesn't mean DICK SHIT and that your opinion holds more weight then everyone else's opinion. Your saying our opinions are wrong, how can they be wrong when they are our own opinion, an opinion is not wrong, facts are wrong, I could say I am a GOD, that is my OWN OPINION, the facts behind that opinion would be wrong.

DONT ever fucking try to tell me my opinion or any other opinion is wrong because you have a different opinion.

Squirrelinabox said:
Ok, so how should it all work then? Every person has a vote (ok, every person of age, that's not in jail, and that meets a few other requirements). I don't believe there has been a system in history that's been anywhere near as fair.
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Are you running for congress?, You've completely missed my entire point here, my point was that an electronic voting system can be manipulated a fuck of a lot easier then the standard paper voting system, with a paper system real people have to count the votes, with an electronic system a computer program (One that can be hacked without anyone knowing) counts the votes.

So are you saying that the electronic systems are as fair as they get, lets cross reference this a bit, can an electronic system be hacked? YES, this isn't a very good example but has windows vista or XP been hacked? YES, has a million other computer programs been hacked? YES.

With that said an electronic voting system can just as easily be hacked, at least with a paper voting system you've got real people to deal with, people with values, their is a better chance someone will step up and say hey I didn't count this the way they are saying I counted this, sure people can be silenced but it takes that much more work on the part of the people hacking the system.

So if a voting system is not fair the government doesn't have to be afraid of the average person because the group hacking the system can just say hey Mr. so and so can help us out the most, we'll elect him as president and fuck what the people of the country think.
 
Aequitas said:
Are you running for congress?, You've completely missed my entire point here, my point was that an electronic voting system can be manipulated a fuck of a lot easier then the standard paper voting system, with a paper system real people have to count the votes, with an electronic system a computer program (One that can be hacked without anyone knowing) counts the votes.

So are you saying that the electronic systems are as fair as they get, lets cross reference this a bit, can an electronic system be hacked? YES, this isn't a very good example but has windows vista or XP been hacked? YES, has a million other computer programs been hacked? YES.

With that said an electronic voting system can just as easily be hacked, at least with a paper voting system you've got real people to deal with, people with values, their is a better chance someone will step up and say hey I didn't count this the way they are saying I counted this, sure people can be silenced but it takes that much more work on the part of the people hacking the system.

So if a voting system is not fair the government doesn't have to be afraid of the average person because the group hacking the system can just say hey Mr. so and so can help us out the most, we'll elect him as president and fuck what the people of the country think.
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before anyone jumps on the conspiracy bandwagon, go watch this: HBO: Hacking Democracy
 
Aequitas said:
First off you draw a dangerous line when you say this, I feel like your basically telling me that my OWN opinion doesn't mean DICK SHIT and that your opinion holds more weight then everyone else's opinion. Your saying our opinions are wrong, how can they be wrong when they are our own opinion, an opinion is not wrong, facts are wrong, I could say I am a GOD, that is my OWN OPINION, the facts behind that opinion would be wrong.

DONT ever fucking try to tell me my opinion or any other opinion is wrong because you have a different opinion.



Are you running for congress?, You've completely missed my entire point here, my point was that an electronic voting system can be manipulated a fuck of a lot easier then the standard paper voting system, with a paper system real people have to count the votes, with an electronic system a computer program (One that can be hacked without anyone knowing) counts the votes.

So are you saying that the electronic systems are as fair as they get, lets cross reference this a bit, can an electronic system be hacked? YES, this isn't a very good example but has windows vista or XP been hacked? YES, has a million other computer programs been hacked? YES.

With that said an electronic voting system can just as easily be hacked, at least with a paper voting system you've got real people to deal with, people with values, their is a better chance someone will step up and say hey I didn't count this the way they are saying I counted this, sure people can be silenced but it takes that much more work on the part of the people hacking the system.

So if a voting system is not fair the government doesn't have to be afraid of the average person because the group hacking the system can just say hey Mr. so and so can help us out the most, we'll elect him as president and fuck what the people of the country think.
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Wow, guess that button shouldn't have been pushed huh?

First, opinions can be wrong if they are a declaration of something. If you say you are god, you are either right or wrong, there is no middle ground with that. If you said you liked god, you may think that couldn't be right or wrong, but again, it can be. If you don't like god and say you do, then you are wrong. Some things don't have a clear right or wrong, but there still is one. I can't prove that you are or aren't god, so I can't prove you right or wrong, but you still are one of those.

Anyway, as for electronic voting, yes, there's a chance they can be manipulated. But... oh... wait... the paper voting thing has already proven to be fallable with the whole Florida chad crap. Every voting system CAN be manipulated and I'm definitely not saying they haven't been.

So electronic voting has somehow made it so that the government doesn't thave to fear us because computer can be hacked but ballot boxes and paper counting with the human factor is 100% foolproof? Um... ok.
 
Squirrelinabox said:
What I'm saying is that everybody jumping on this video's bandwagon need to get their own opinions straight. If you believe the government is in to many countries right now, then THAT is what's wrong in your opinion.
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Aequitas said:
First off you draw a dangerous line when you say this, I feel like your basically telling me that my OWN opinion doesn't mean DICK SHIT and that your opinion holds more weight then everyone else's opinion. Your saying our opinions are wrong, how can they be wrong when they are our own opinion, an opinion is not wrong, facts are wrong, I could say I am a GOD, that is my OWN OPINION, the facts behind that opinion would be wrong.

DONT ever fucking try to tell me my opinion or any other opinion is wrong because you have a different opinion.
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You were reading Squirrel's wording in a different way than he meant it (it could be read both ways). What he was trying to convey, paraphrased, is:

If you believe the government is in too many countries right now, then that is the problem/issue you are against. The topic at hand is whether we have to pay taxes or not, not the specific activities that cause the tax rate to be high.
 
Squirrelinabox said:
Wow, guess that button shouldn't have been pushed huh?

First, opinions can be wrong if they are a declaration of something. If you say you are god, you are either right or wrong, there is no middle ground with that. If you said you liked god, you may think that couldn't be right or wrong, but again, it can be. If you don't like god and say you do, then you are wrong. Some things don't have a clear right or wrong, but there still is one. I can't prove that you are or aren't god, so I can't prove you right or wrong, but you still are one of those.
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Ok I better understand where you are coming from on the opinion situation, my comments were a bit over the top but at least we are somewhat on the same page.

Anyway, as for electronic voting, yes, there's a chance they can be manipulated. But... oh... wait... the paper voting thing has already proven to be fallable with the whole Florida chad crap. Every voting system CAN be manipulated and I'm definitely not saying they haven't been.

So electronic voting has somehow made it so that the government doesn't thave to fear us because computer can be hacked but ballot boxes and paper counting with the human factor is 100% foolproof? Um... ok.
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No I am definatly not saying that paper counting with a human factor is 100% fool proof, I'm just saying that with paper counting involving humans its a little more troublesome to cheat the system because their will always be people asking questions, and thinking to themselves that something is not right.

At least with the humans counting the votes their is a better chance something can be exposed, with a computer system, someone with enough skill could easily hide a hack inside of the source code to manipulate the votes anyway they see fit and without a ton of people looking at it their would be no one to detect the problem and no one would be the wiser.

An electronic voting system has much more potential to be hacked without anyone knowing, with a human voting system its much more hassle to try and hack the system because you've got to deal with all sorts of people.

Nethier of these systems are 100% foolproof and I don't think any system will ever be 100% foolproof but I prefer to go with the odds on this one.
 
stanley said:
before anyone jumps on the conspiracy bandwagon, go watch this: HBO: Hacking Democracy
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Ok I don't know why this was broken up into 10 parts but its the HBO: HACKING DEMOCRACY video that can be found on youtube. If anyone has a link to it without so many parts post it, I couldn't find the whole thing on Google Video. So here it is.

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5
Part 6
Part 7
Part 8
Part 9
Part 10

I've not watched the whole thing yet but it seems kinda interesting.
 
shaggz said:
You were reading Squirrel's wording in a different way than he meant it (it could be read both ways). What he was trying to convey, paraphrased, is:

If you believe the government is in too many countries right now, then that is the problem/issue you are against. The topic at hand is whether we have to pay taxes or not, not the specific activities that cause the tax rate to be high.
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Exactly, thanks for the paraphrase :)

Aequitas, honestly I don't know if the electonic voting is more or less susceptible to corruption, but I do know that there are an incredibly amount of systems out there that have not been hacked. If they make the system completely offline or at least keep it on it's own secure network and give the systems no way to receive any input besides the votes, then I think it'd be incredibly hard to hack. I don't know how they are set up exactly nor am I much of a hacker, so take that with a grain of salt. I won't be bothered with the HBO documentary, I've watched one too many today.
 
Squirrelinabox said:
I won't be bothered with the HBO documentary, I've watched one too many today.
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Well I'm going to finish watching the Documentary and see what its all about but the funny thing about all of this is now the more I watch the more interested I get and the more my business mind begins to work, I've already begun thinking of ways to incorporate this little niche to turn a profit.
 
I just finished watching this other documentary on the voting systems and it simply backs my claims that electronic voting systems are easier to hack and easier to hide what has happened then a human voting system is.

I'm not saying human voting is foolproof but it takes a lot more to hack, Its an interesting show nonetheless so check it out.
 
I hear from lots of people like Squirrelinabox that think things in the USA are pretty good and massive change isn't a good idea...

But I think the thing most status quo types don't realize is that we are built on a foundation of freedom and no income tax.

We are still coasting uphill from the momentum generated by our Constitutional Republic. Now that we have unconstitutionally transitioned into just another Euro-Socialist-Democracy we will soon start rolling the other way. Regulations, laws, and taxes will stifle growth and begin a feedback loop of debt and taxes until we have French-style rioting.

Too much Government takes the fun outta life...
 
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