No More Income Taxes in the US?!
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The constitutional amendment is pretty simple and does not disagree with the tax code.
Also, looking through the Supreme Court case law, there are plenty of decisions referencing the IRC, so it's not really true that the courts have ruled against it.
I'm actually not saying massive change isn't a good idea. I'm just saying removing income tax with NO ALTERNATIVE isn't a good idea. The video, and its supporters, are looking for a way out of having to give up some money, regardless of the consequences. The truth is, the income taxes DO GO SOMEWHERE and not once in the video does anybody say what an alternative should be. I'm not saying income tax is the best thing ever, I'm just saying it's the best solution that at least works somewhat that I've heard about - I'd love to hear otherwise.
Like wdmny has said a couple times, the courts have supported the tax law more than they have contradicted it. Courts have contradicted each other in the past, but this video seems to think that since a couple court cases didn't explicitly say that there is a hard written document saying income tax is a law, that that means everybody should stop paying. If you notice, the cases mentioned in favor of people not paying the tax were ones decided by jurors. We all know how perfect juries are *cough* OJ *cough*.
I end by just asking again, what should we do to cover what the income taxes go to if the income tax isn't the right system?
In my opinion the alternative should be a national sales tax. Some say a 23% sales tax would allow us to cut all other taxes and still allow us to partake in the programs currently in use. Just imagine what it would be if we cut all the bloated programs...
I say everyone moves out of the United States. Then who'll pay the trillion dollar debt? Come back in a couple years, and everyones over it.
Governments are just dumb. They just waste money. Small scale, and large scale. This kid was telling me about how at his school they pay $5,000 to get 20 or so of those shitty desks per classroom.
My dad used to work in Aeronautics back in the 90's rocket craze in florida. And there many government spending horror stories behind that. Namely, hundreds of millions of dollars, and 5 years of the most talented scientists in the country working on a control center type thing for a plane that EVERYONE knew was deffective. Explanation? If they didn't spend the money, then it'd go to someone else.
Governments are just dumb. They just waste money. Small scale, and large scale. This kid was telling me about how at his school they pay $5,000 to get 20 or so of those shitty desks per classroom.
My dad used to work in Aeronautics back in the 90's rocket craze in florida. And there many government spending horror stories behind that. Namely, hundreds of millions of dollars, and 5 years of the most talented scientists in the country working on a control center type thing for a plane that EVERYONE knew was deffective. Explanation? If they didn't spend the money, then it'd go to someone else.
Read this:
FairTax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
that's the way to go.
although I think FairTax should be administered by the States and not the Federal Government.
FairTax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
that's the way to go.
although I think FairTax should be administered by the States and not the Federal Government.
Why would you prefer a large sales tax over income tax? Not attacking the idea. I'm genuinly curious.
Like I said in an earlier post, I'm no economy expert so I, personally, have no idea as to what it would take to maintain our current state without income tax.
I do completely agree that there are a hell of a lot of bloated programs. And yes, probably only a nickel on every dollar sent to the government actually gets to where it's supposed to go (made up that ratio, I have no idea what the real thing is). Just about every program requires some overhead, so 100% of the funds are never going to go directly to where they need to go, but I do agree that the percentage could be bigger than what it is now.
Absolutely nothing. We starve the government back into submission. Here a few reasons why this is the right course of action:
1. The FedGov freely admits to pissing away 85 cents on every dollar they collect. Meaning - only 15 cents makes it's way out of bureauacracy and into programs.
2. The 85 cents pissed away thing was BEFORE we found out the Pentagon has missplaced 2 TRILLION dollars.
3. The 85 cents is used to feed beaucrats. Each one of these blood suckers could be in the free market actually doing some good instead of writing regulations that cost jobs, time, and money.
4. The FedGov does actual harm with the money they spend. Propping up totalitarian dictatorships around the world. Incarcerating people for victimless crimes. Bribing the states into a federal system (which deprives us of choice.) Infringing on privacy. Waging wars.
5. Government is a dangerous force. History has shown that governments tend to evolve into monsters of suppression. Allowing our gov't to spend 2.3 trillion dollars a year will end up biting us all in the ass. The signs are already here that we face a fascist future --- Fascist = a system of government where the needs of the state superceed those of the individual.
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We could turn the USA back into a growth machine and beacon of freedom in the world by starving gov't back into it's constitutional bounds.
The pros and cons are all listed here
I am personally looking forward to not having to keep track of all of these or paying someone to do it:
- Accounts receivable tax
- Alternative Minimum Tax (AMT)
- Building permit tax
- Capital gains tax
- CDL license tax
- Cigarette tax
- Corporate income tax
- Court fines (indirect taxes)
- Dog license tax
- Excise tax
- Federal income tax
- Federal unemployment tax (FUTA)
- FICA tax
- Fishing license tax
- Food license tax
- Fuel permit tax
- Gasoline tax (42 cents per gallon)
- Gift tax
- Hunting license tax
- Inheritance tax interest expense (tax on the money)
- Inventory tax IRS interest charges (tax on top of tax)
- IRS penalties (tax on top of tax)
- Liquor tax
- Local income tax
- Luxury taxes
- Marriage license tax
- Medicare tax
- Property tax
- Real estate tax
- Recreational vehicle tax
- Road toll booth taxes
- Road usage taxes (Truckers)
- Sales tax and equivalent use tax
- School tax
- Septic permit tax
- Service charge taxes
- Social Security tax
- State income tax
- State unemployment tax (SUTA)
- Telephone federal excise tax
- Telephone federal, state and local surcharge taxes
- Telephone federal universal service fee tax
- Telephone minimum usage surcharge tax
- Telephone recurring and non-recurring charges tax
- Telephone state and local tax
- Telephone usage charge tax
- Toll bridge taxes
- Toll tunnel taxes
- Traffic fines (indirect taxation)
- Trailer registration tax
- Transfer tax and Generation-skipping transfer tax
- Utility taxes
- Vehicle license registration tax
- Vehicle sales tax
- Watercraft registration tax
- Well permit tax
- Wheel tax
- Workers compensation tax
Nothing would kill america faster than that fair tax being passed.
First of all always be skeptical of a law that says "fair" fair is subjective. Second of all you got to consider the economic impact it would have on a national level. Even though it seems all fair it has very bad consequences.
The upper class on an average have different spending habits than the lower class. The lower class's expenses tend to match their income. The upper class tends to reinvest a portion of their income to create more income, which would be untaxable. So the upper class' income would grow faster than if there were still an income tax. That would have to come out of somewhere, the lower class. It would end up breaking down like this in the end:
American Corporations/businesses = paying virtually no taxes since they reinvest most of their money.
Upper class = paying much less in taxes than they normally would because the 23% would adjust to be less than what they are currently paying. Their spending habits would naturally increase their income faster than they would get taxed on it.
Middle class = would come out about even.
Lower class = would be paying about double their current average because their spending habits would equal their income. So the more they make the more they spend in a taxable manner therefore get taxed, except at a rate that is approx. double of what they are currently being taxed. Since their income growth is on avg. stagnate their tax would be stagnate. So they would be affected negatively.
So if your following me so far, this would create a catastrophically huge separation of classes. Which history has proven to create major social disorder. When social disorder happens the first and foremost affected are the corporations and businesses. Which would cause major losses. In an attempt to salvage earnings the corporations would hold their earnings and/or invest it in foreign means. When this happens the loss of circulation momentum would cause an economic dust bowl. Once America has recovered from that, the same thing would happen that happened with the Great Depression. The rich would emerge richer and the poor would emerge poorer (we're still not fully recovered from that last blow).
In an economic sense, the middle class are the best investment. Them having money is good for both the economy growth and local business growth. Never support a tax that helps the upper class and corporations, even if you are rich its a very bad idea.
On the upside to this though, we'd have no irs
Nothing would kill america faster than that fair tax being passed.
First of all always be skeptical of a law that says "fair" fair is subjective. Second of all you got to consider the economic impact it would have on a national level. Even though it seems all fair it has very bad consequences.
The upper class on an average have different spending habits than the lower class. The lower class's expenses tend to match their income. The upper class tends to reinvest a portion of their income to create more income, which would be untaxable. So the upper class' income would grow faster than if there were still an income tax. That would have to come out of somewhere, the lower class. It would end up breaking down like this in the end:
American Corporations/businesses = paying virtually no taxes since they reinvest most of their money.
Upper class = paying much less in taxes than they normally would because the 23% would adjust to be less than what they are currently paying. Their spending habits would naturally increase their income faster than they would get taxed on it.
Middle class = would come out about even.
Lower class = would be paying about double their current average because their spending habits would equal their income. So the more they make the more they spend in a taxable manner therefore get taxed, except at a rate that is approx. double of what they are currently being taxed. Since their income growth is on avg. stagnate their tax would be stagnate. So they would be affected negatively.
So if your following me so far, this would create a catastrophically huge separation of classes. Which history has proven to create major social disorder. When social disorder happens the first and foremost affected are the corporations and businesses. Which would cause major losses. In an attempt to salvage earnings the corporations would hold their earnings and/or invest it in foreign means. When this happens the loss of circulation momentum would cause an economic dust bowl. Once America has recovered from that, the same thing would happen that happened with the Great Depression. The rich would emerge richer and the poor would emerge poorer (we're still not fully recovered from that last blow).
In an economic sense, the middle class are the best investment. Them having money is good for both the economy growth and local business growth. Never support a tax that helps the upper class and corporations, even if you are rich its a very bad idea.
On the upside to this though, we'd have no irs
Eli, effective tax rates are implemented with fairtax. People with lower incomes will have high tax offsets, therefore their tax rates will be lower.
Distribution of the FairTax burden - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Also the payroll tax we have right now is a truly regressive tax compared to FairTax. It has no standard deductions or personal exemptions. And more than 75% of American pay more in payroll taxes than they do in income taxes. With fairtax, all regressive taxes are eliminated and the lower income brackets are shielded with effective tax rates.
Oh and I PM'd you about something Deli.
I doubt it would have a negative effect on spending because people would have more money available since they are not being taxed elsewhere. Besides I think we Americans are much more impulsive in our spending regardless.
I didn't read through this all but I've known about the income tax thing for some time now.
Income tax is a "voluntary" tax and the goverment can't demand a "mandatory" income tax but given a great legal system and the power given to the IRS by being able to bypass "due process" allowing them to seize/hold/lean everything in your possession. Without going to court.
And the tax form everyone fills out...is an attachment required by immagrants, not required by citizens but you are require by employers to fill one out to get hire...something like that. It's been awhile since I studied it all.
Income tax is a "voluntary" tax and the goverment can't demand a "mandatory" income tax but given a great legal system and the power given to the IRS by being able to bypass "due process" allowing them to seize/hold/lean everything in your possession. Without going to court.
And the tax form everyone fills out...is an attachment required by immagrants, not required by citizens but you are require by employers to fill one out to get hire...something like that. It's been awhile since I studied it all.
Bingo.
[/FONT]Maybe it's because they never taught this in our government sponsored goverment classes.Ron Paul said:
The fact is, we live in a place that the government can do whatever they want to us because they have the guns. They not only have the guns, but they have the monopoly of force. They "protect" our freedom by stripping our freedom, and we are powerless to do anything about it.
This is very much nonsensical Republic of Texas type stuff.
Don't believe this sheet for one minute. Go ahead and don't pay your taxes if you actually think there is no authority to enforce it. I suggest anyone who does will find out differently, eventually.
It is dumb to think we don't need tax money. I am not a fan of the wastefulness of our government, but everything has a trade-off, and we exchange some of this for the best living in the world. I will take that every day of the week.
Can things be improved and changed? Yeah but there is a system for doing it. Getting outraged because some nutjob tells you there is no reason to pay taxes, well all that is going to do is ruin your own life.
Your not throwing Tea into Boston Harbor fighting the Queen of England. You would simply be another idiot who thought they could not pay their taxes who winds up with a massive financial liability and some nice jail time.
Regardless, most people pay taxes not just because they have to, but because they know we all need to do it. So we might gripe and groan every year, but such anti-establishment behavior is going to garner almost zero public sympathy as everyone else tells you to sit down and shut up.
I live in a State where people claim the US does not own Texas. They can even make a compelling argument... Until you realize they are insane.
If you don't want to pay taxes, I suggest you move to a country that does not have any taxation.
Don't believe this sheet for one minute. Go ahead and don't pay your taxes if you actually think there is no authority to enforce it. I suggest anyone who does will find out differently, eventually.
It is dumb to think we don't need tax money. I am not a fan of the wastefulness of our government, but everything has a trade-off, and we exchange some of this for the best living in the world. I will take that every day of the week.
Can things be improved and changed? Yeah but there is a system for doing it. Getting outraged because some nutjob tells you there is no reason to pay taxes, well all that is going to do is ruin your own life.
Your not throwing Tea into Boston Harbor fighting the Queen of England. You would simply be another idiot who thought they could not pay their taxes who winds up with a massive financial liability and some nice jail time.
Regardless, most people pay taxes not just because they have to, but because they know we all need to do it. So we might gripe and groan every year, but such anti-establishment behavior is going to garner almost zero public sympathy as everyone else tells you to sit down and shut up.
I live in a State where people claim the US does not own Texas. They can even make a compelling argument... Until you realize they are insane.
If you don't want to pay taxes, I suggest you move to a country that does not have any taxation.
Dru, The entire over-spending by our government has been a well-known and well-debated issue since I have been aware enough to notice. It is not some kind of secret that the US federal government wastes money. It is a topic of constant conversation. We don't need an extremist video to open our eyes. You can't really think everyone is in the dark on this. Most people just accept it as part of the trade off and work to change things as the are...
Fortunately our form of government is amazingly resilliant and is full of ways to keep things in check. Ultimately push comes to shove, and the people can enact change. Yet it takes something that people necessarily care about.
Like I said, not really some big revelation that the US government is wasting money, or trying to erode our personal rights. The problem is people have to give superhuman traits to people who manage our government to make any of this a real issue. They are still just human beings like the rest of us. They don't have any superpowers.
I just think people acting outraged or like any of this is the least bit new is a bit ignorant. It is what it is, and what it has been for a very long time now.
Sales tax is the second most regressive tax you can have. I suspect the powers that be would love it, as it would keep the poor people singificantly poorer, and under their thumb.
Might as well just have a huge national lottery if that is what you want to do, and use that to fund everything.
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