Reversing Type 2 Diabetes

There was a clinical study done 3-4 years ago about reversing type 2 diabetes with a 600 calorie per day diet, done for 2 weeks to 1 month. The success rate was 95%. The remaining 5% never responded to the success survey.

This was involving around 500 people in Florida.
 


Few doctors take the time to understand the pathophysiology of conditions. As such, few are equipped with the specialized knowledge to recommend treatments that address underlying causes.

It's not entirely their fault. First, there's a lot to learn and little time to learn it. Second, there's security (i.e. lower risk of being sued) in parroting regimens that other doctors recommend.

Here's an example:

Statins are prescribed to treat high LDL levels. The idea is that reducing LDLs lowers the odds of heart disease, which lowers the odds of a fatal heart attack. Back in 2013, the AHA and ACC came up with updated guidelines that made millions of additional people eligible for statins. So doctors felt confident - or more confident - recommending them to their patients.

But lo and behold, scientists are finding that statins cause vascular calcification, destroy mitochondria and hamper ATP production. Moreover, the FDA cleared the drugs based on proof that they meet surrogate, rather then clinical, endpoints.

And here's the punchline: a bunch of the folks on the AHA/ACC panel that came up with the new guidelines have been paid by statin makers (see pages 52 - 55 of this PDF).

That's all to say, don't put too much stock in a doctor's opinion. It is so often misguided. And when all of a doctor's peers are making the same recommendation - e.g. "start taking statins to avoid a heart attack" - it's way easier and less risky to parrot the same advice than go off the reservation.

It's true for diabetes just like statins, antiemetics, NOACs, etc.

Medicine is very hierarchical. Guidelines come from international organizations, down to country and state organizations. Most doctors go along with them to protect themselves from lawsuits. If anything goes wrong, they can always say they were following accepted practices.

This documentary exposes the statin scam. Only a small percentage of people benefit from them. The rest are bilked and can suffer disastrous side effects. My dad was on them for a while and turned into an ogre. He also had leg cramps that limited his mobility and caused him to fall down once after getting out of his car. He also had nasty nightmares. If you read the warning label, they actually have information for teenagers taking statins. Teenagers!! One of the side effects for teenagers was nightmares. I bet older people suffer from them, too, but don't put two and two together. Fortunately, he's off them now and fully recovered.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ry1Z8buyd8I[/ame]
 
Very glad to hear that.

Drug companies and universities... marketing extraordinaires and scam artists at the same time.

My dad is 59 and just found out he has angina and a 90% block in his LAD so they did the angioplasty and put in a stent. Its weird because he has no risk factors always ate pretty healthy, no drinking or smoking, cholesterol has never been high, blood pressure has always been optimal. They prescribed him statins of course but he's already cut his cholesterol in half and has very low LDL and low HDL now. He's thinking he should probably stop the Statins because he's moved to a full plant based diet based on Dr Esselstyn and Dr Mcgregor from nutritionfacts.org. Anyway, he's lost 20 lbs so far since starting, but none of his doctors recommend him stopping the statins even though he has super low cholesterol right now.
 
Anyway, he's lost 20 lbs so far since starting, but none of his doctors recommend him stopping the statins even though he has super low cholesterol right now.

The old way to using statins to treat high cholesterol was to watch LDL numbers. If someone was high, put him on statins and wait for his levels to his predefined targets. Then, take him off.*

The new way of using statins throws LDL targets out the window. The most recent guidelines recommend statin therapy for anyone in these 4 groups:

  • Patients who have cardiovascular disease;
  • Patients with an LDL, or “bad” cholesterol level of 190 mg/dL or higher;
  • Patients with Type 2 diabetes who are between 40 and 75 years of age; and
  • Patients with an estimated 10-year risk of cardiovascular disease of 7.5 percent or higher who are between 40 and 75 years of age (the report provides formulas for calculating 10-year risk).

Here's the funny thing: the formulas used by the AHA/ACC panel to calculate risk of heart disease are inaccurate. They overestimate the risk. One review found that they overestimate it by 87% in men (67% in women).

It's all a sham.

Here we have a panel of "experts," many of whom have received significant sums from statin companies, creating guidelines for statin prescription. Coincidentally, the guidelines chuck LDL targets, which means millions will be taking statins for the rest of their lives.

And as if that's not enough, the guideline defining the 4th group of eligible patients grossly overestimates the risk of heart disease. So millions who may not be at high risk are put on statins for good measure.

That's pretty clever. Maybe it's time to buy stock in Pfizer, Merck and AstraZeneca. ;)

Of course, it could all just be an innocent coincidence. But I'm cynical.

As for doctors, they're low on the food chain. They're pawns to be used to further greater agendas (e.g. Big Pharma's profit margins, market share, etc.) I don't expect them to know everything. But I do expect them to keep their pie holes shut if they're ignorant, which most are.

Hell, most doctors still tell patients to increase their fiber intake if they're suffering from constipation. (Wrong again, doc.)

State licensure doesn't make someone an expert.



* New research shows there are many kinds of LDLs and not all of them are "bad." Research also shows that, despite the company line muttered by most doctors, cholesterol isn't the cause of heart disease. Sugar is. Persistently high sugar in the blood causes inflammation in the arterial walls. Cholesterol is the first responder to repair the damage. But it gets trapped in the walls and accumulates.

Most doctors blame cholesterol because they don't know any better. Some doctors blame cholesterol because they don't feel like explaining things to patients (can't blame them).
 
People with high cholesterol live longer. The saturated fat / heart disease idea was started by Ancel Keys, the creator of K-rations. He charted a graph with data from about 7 or so countries. The correlation looked very strong. However, he omitted the data from several other countries. When you add all of the data to the chart, there is no correlation between saturated fat consumption and heart disease. And that's just the tip of the iceberg wrt to all of the bad science involved.

Statin Scam: People with Higher Cholesterol Live Longer than People with Low Cholesterol

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics:

http://www.thincs.org
 
Kiopa, not sure if you'll understand this cause you've seemed to already label most of us conspiratards already.. but the respect (and poontang) most general practitioners get is not well deserved. These guys basically just look at the symptoms of a patient, and consult a book to tell them what to do or prescribe when a patient has those symptoms. For common things, they have just memorized what to look for and prescribe. Does that sound like rocket science? Do you think their book of symptoms/prescriptions is vulnerable to misinformation?

Of course there are more worthy doctors who do research or surgeries, but lets face it the hardest part about being a general practitioner is med school. Even those who do research on the way the body works and attempts to find medicines usually only look at an extremely small piece of the total chemical picture of the human body. I say this as a man who loves and believes in science, medicine, etc. But the shortsightedness of most medicines is astounding.. and of course the profit motivation just make them even more dangerous. We just don't have the knowledge or models to see the long term effects of medication on all chemical systems of the body. Nothing is simple in biological systems. Math, physics, astronomy are all clean and simple sciences comparably.

This is something people of all political groups are starting to understand. I just hope the backlash to science isn't too bad. Mistakes are a part of the scientific method. This is why it rarely makes sense to stake your life on new science, medicines, etc. But because big pharma has to keep increasing their profits (simply maintaining the same profit just isn't good enough for modern markets for some fucking reason) they'll insist on fast-tracking their shit straight into your mouth. And once they have done that they'll never admit they made a mistake in what they did. Shit, it's been shown many times they'll even market new drugs after they found out they were dangerous in their own studies. Have you been blind to all the medical drug scandals in the last 15 yrs? These same fucktards get themselves installed on various boards (like the American Diabetes Association) to approve/disapprove official methods for treating things like diabetes. Have you not seen that this is how it works in America yet? This same strategy is used in other industries as well.
 
These guys basically just look at the symptoms of a patient, and consult a book to tell them what to do or prescribe when a patient has those symptoms. For common things, they have just memorized what to look for and prescribe. Does that sound like rocket science? Do you think their book of symptoms/prescriptions is vulnerable to misinformation?

By no means do I believe every doctor is a genius who deserves our utmost respect. Hell, I could probably become a doctor if I had a passion for it, and applied myself for nearly a decade.

Nonetheless, most doctors have 8 years of training under their belt, plus passed multiple exams in order to get their license. No offence, but if / when I ever need medical attention, I'm pretty confident I'm going to listen to what the doctor says, versus rushing to WF to find out the best way to treat myself, because somebody found a Youtube video. If I believe the doctor is wrong or doesn't care, I'll go find a new one. If I believe I found something interesting that the doctor never mentioned, I'll bring it up with him/her and ask their opinion. I definitely won't ever believe I know more than the doctor when it comes to medicine though.

It's kinda the same as if I need legal advice, I'm not going to goto a mechanic.
 
Nonetheless, most doctors have 8 years of training under their belt, plus passed multiple exams in order to get their license.

Passing exams is not a sign of competence. Any professor will tell you the same.

An example: I used to frequent a Starbucks where one of the baristas, a UCLA grad, couldn't count change. She also made tons of simple mistakes (for example, delivering dark roast when I asked for Pike Place). Dumb as a stump. Did well in school though. lol


No offence, but if / when I ever need medical attention, I'm pretty confident I'm going to listen to what the doctor says, versus rushing to WF to find out the best way to treat myself, because somebody found a Youtube video.

That sounds reasonable.


If I believe the doctor is wrong..., I'll go find a new one.

That's easier said than done. Doctors tend to deliver diagnoses as truths rather than best guesses. Patients are inclined to believe them because doctors are supposed to be the experts.

Here's an example:

Earlier this year, a friend of mine died from Lyme disease. How is that possible in 2015? His doctor misdiagnosed his symptoms. He said my friend had ALS.

The doc didn't say, "It could be ALS, but I'm not sure."

He said, "It's ALS. Let's start treatment."

Wrong.

The result? Dead patient.

The point is that it's not easy to know when a doctor is wrong. Hence, it's not easy to know when to look for another doctor.


I definitely won't ever believe I know more than the doctor when it comes to medicine though.

I see things differently than you (no surprise, right?). I believe I DO know more about some aspects of medicine than SOME doctors.

That claim is not as outrageous as it sounds. Doctors specialize. The best pour themselves into their respective specialties, learning about new findings, treatments and methods of diagnosis. That leaves them very little time to become experts in other areas.

For example, ask an orthopedic surgeon to explain how Takayasu Disease occurs. His training to become a doctor probably didn't cover it. He might be able to stumble his way through, but he's unlikely to have the expertise to provide an exhaustive explanation.

Meanwhile, consider a guy whose wife suffers from Takayasu Disease, and because of her illness has spent a ton of time examining every piece of research published in medical journals over the last 20 years. He probably knows more than the orthopedic surgeon.

Again, it's not an outrageous claim.


It's kinda the same as if I need legal advice, I'm not going to goto a mechanic.

That's fair. But suppose that mechanic has been through several divorces, and as a result of his dogged research, is extremely knowledgeable about divorce laws in his state. I'd consult him before consulting a criminal defense lawyer, the latter of whom is unlikely to provide good representation in a nasty divorce.

Here's an example that speaks to that point.

When I got out of college, I interned at Merrill (this is going back a few decades). One of the star brokers told me that his best source for stock tips was one of his clients: a mechanic.

The mechanic didn't have a series 7. He wasn't a CFP on the side. He fixed cars. But he was so knowledgeable about stocks that even a licensed investment advisor sought his advice.

It's not insane to consider the medical field in the same light.
 
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Kiopa, just so you know these alternative treatments we're bringing up (like treating diabetes with low carbing, etc) were actually made BY MEDICAL DOCTORS too. So the question i guess is what doctors are you choosing to believe? Nobody here would be asking you to believe some WF ass over an MD. But the WF ass is just repeating what many other MDs have said. That's the funny thing about all of this is that MD's and scientists DO NOT AGREE about many things including how we should eat, how we should treat certain diseases, etc. But I guess to you all that matters is what the majority of MDs believe at a certain moment in time.. because what the majority believe changes over time after old treatments are found to basically be poison, etc.
 
But I guess to you all that matters is what the majority of MDs believe at a certain moment in time.. because what the majority believe changes over time after old treatments are found to basically be poison, etc.

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up. Peer review is a wonderful thing, isn't it?

I don't know about you, but I'm not going to risk my life & health on an unproven theory that a handful of doctors believes to be true. I'll wait until that theory is confirmed, tested, and approved of by 1000s of doctors, and becomes commonly accepted as fact within the medical community. To each their own though. For every theory that becomes accepted as fact, there's 5000+ that get rejected.

Only exception is if I end up with some terminal illness where death is imminent. Then go right ahead and test all the experimental treatments you want on me.
 
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You lack self-control. Maybe that's why you have type 2 diabetes.

Well I guess you must be the resident armchair psychiatrist.
Hey, asshole. Please tell me more about myself that I don't already know.

Lastly, I happened to have a doctors appointment today and my doctor reviewed my latest blood test and told me I reversed diabetes. Who knew???

Hallelujah!!!!

Praise Allah!!!!!!
 
My dad is 59 and just found out he has angina and a 90% block in his LAD so they did the angioplasty and put in a stent. Its weird because he has no risk factors always ate pretty healthy, no drinking or smoking, cholesterol has never been high, blood pressure has always been optimal. They prescribed him statins of course but he's already cut his cholesterol in half and has very low LDL and low HDL now. He's thinking he should probably stop the Statins because he's moved to a full plant based diet based on Dr Esselstyn and Dr Mcgregor from nutritionfacts.org. Anyway, he's lost 20 lbs so far since starting, but none of his doctors recommend him stopping the statins even though he has super low cholesterol right now.

Looking at high or low cholesterol whether its total, LDL, HDL is meaningless. Right now all we have are correlation studies for the cholesterol hypothesis.

In fact there are pronounced correlations with ratios. I started a thread a while back regarding cholesterol ratios here.

If you look at the correlation between insulin and heart disease, there is a strong correlation showing higher insulin increases heart disease. This aligns with dietary sugar increasing heart disease risk since sugar also causes high serum insulin levels (in addition to inflammation).

Statins are useless as they go by a flawed hypothesis that lowering cholesterol lowers heart disease. Whats worse is they have nasty side effects, one of which is cutting off the cholesterol producing pathway which is also the pathway to producing ubiquinol, an important antioxidant for the brain and heart.

It is theorised that any benefit from statins may come from its antiinflammatory properties, but you can achieve those via supplements or better yet, diet.
 
Well I guess you must be the resident armchair psychiatrist.
Hey, asshole. Please tell me more about myself that I don't already know.

Lastly, I happened to have a doctors appointment today and my doctor reviewed my latest blood test and told me I reversed diabetes. Who knew???

Hallelujah!!!!

Praise Allah!!!!!!

Glad for your success, really. You did combine working out and healthy dieting with insulin shots, right? I think you said it somewhere in this thread. Whatever helped - I'm glad it worked.
 
Did you even read the American Diabetes Association studies? I'm pretty sure they know more about diabetes than anyone else here, and they say it can be reversed.

I'll take their opinion over anyone else's here.

Please tell me more about how government sponsored studies are the pinnacle of intelligence, and forward thinking.
 
Yeah, that pretty much sums it up. Peer review is a wonderful thing, isn't it?

I don't know about you, but I'm not going to risk my life & health on an unproven theory that a handful of doctors believes to be true. I'll wait until that theory is confirmed, tested, and approved of by 1000s of doctors, and becomes commonly accepted as fact within the medical community. To each their own though. For every theory that becomes accepted as fact, there's 5000+ that get rejected.

Only exception is if I end up with some terminal illness where death is imminent. Then go right ahead and test all the experimental treatments you want on me.

Here is your thought process:

1. Has to be peer reviewed
2. Theory is confirmed, tested, and approved of by 1000s of doctors
3. Commonly accepted as fact within the medical community (read my signature)

I would say the point 1, partially point 2 and point 3 is concensus science, which we know is political science.

However, from all of your posts in this thread thus far, I get the impression point 3 is all that concerns you. As long as it's in the governmental guidelines for doctors treatment of diabetes its good enough, its the correct treatment, investigate no further.

I mean, can you show a peer reviewed study (confirmed and tested via the scientific method) which confirms the need/benefit in the dietary guidelines for type 2 diabetics to eat carbohydrates? 1000s of doctors recommend diabetic patients to eat carbohydrates as part of their diet right?
 
That's easier said than done. Doctors tend to deliver diagnoses as truths rather than best guesses. Patients are inclined to believe them because doctors are supposed to be the experts.

I don't have anything to share on the thread topic, but I would like to share a quick story related to this.

Back in 2008 or so, my girl at the time was having seizures that appeared to be epilepsy to anyone seeing them, but scans showed that they weren't due to random brain activity (aka it wasn't due to epilepsy). There are a handful of other things that can cause seizures like this, the most common of which is basically extreme stress and anxiety. This was his diagnosis. He explained his diagnosis with the following, pretty close to verbatim:

"As a doctor, I look at all of the information I have available, and I try to decide what's going on much like you might try to decide what kind of animal you're looking at with bits and pieces of a picture. I might look at these pieces and say, 'That looks like a duck,' and someone else might look at the pieces and say, 'That looks like a horse.' These episodes you're having are something that has a cause, and figuring out the cause is very difficult when it's not epilepsy. I have a lot of experience with this, and that's what I strongly believe it to be with the information I have here, but we might get new information in the future that makes me change my mind."

That was easily the single most reasonable thing I have ever heard a doctor say.
 
Just check out what happened when ADA asked on facebook 'what was your most recent blood glucose reading?'

The uncontrollable elevated blood glucose responses are those using the prescribed ADA diet and insulin. The normal level respondents are those on a low carb diet.

So the ones on low carb diet (doesn't take a genius to know carbs = sugar for diabetics.). Do you consider them having "reversed" diabetes? If so, then what happens if they go back to the ADA diet and glucose gets elevated again? See, that is controlling and managing diabetes rather than "reversing". Do you understand, or is your head still up your ass?
 
So the ones on low carb diet (doesn't take a genius to know carbs = sugar for diabetics.). Do you consider them having "reversed" diabetes? If so, then what happens if they go back to the ADA diet and glucose gets elevated again? See, that is controlling and managing diabetes rather than "reversing". Do you understand, or is your head still up your ass?

Is your head too far up your ass to have read and understood what I wrote before:

It depends on how we define 'reverse diabetes'. If it means no longer needing drugs or insulin injections, then the diet can satisfy that criteria.

I would assume so, since you can't distinguish between type 1 and type 2 diabetes, being a diabetic yourself.