Seal Team 6 Dead
- Thread starter BeerNuts
- Start date
Of course I cannot prove anything that has not occurred. No one can. I can only appeal to the logic of those that have argued against me. This may be a logical fallacy, but hey, I grew up in a ghetto and have a crappy education, and I am no where near as bright as the academics around here. I wonder if that makes me a Tea Party person?
Anyhow, my "truth" is anecdotal.
1. B4 the war - AQ attacks the US. They claim there were other attacks "in the works".
2. During the war - OBL, the probable figure head of AQ, states that the focus is on defeating the US in the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Could that have been a manipulated news story? Maybe. But I never heard it disputed.
3. This the war has helped because we have dismantled many parts of AQ through the war effort and have even found evidence of planned attacks etc on investigation of records/materials found as a result of war related activities. In other words - we have foiled plans/killed the planners etc
All of the above is consistent with my statement that :
It is true that if we were not over there fighting and keeping the terrorist organizations busy that we would be fighting them in the US.
If you believe that 9/11 was isolated and would not have resulted in further attacks had the original not been answered then you are not thinking straight.
Terrorists organizations thrive because of the support of sponsors. These sponsors offer intelligence, weapons, training, safe havens, and money. The wars have certainly disrupted this and have therefore "kept the terrorist organizations busy" so that we would not be fighting them in the US.
I am not even close to certain how you could argue the point. You can debate my logic or even my wording or maybe dispute the nitty gritty of the argument - but you really think that had we done nothing there would not have been more attacks? That had the states that sponsor terror not seen that they would be eliminated if caught - you do not think that disrupted any plans? really?
You might say that fighting a senseless, war that can not be proven to be won, means we are keeping the terrorists busy. However they have tried to strike since and a war in the middle east will not stop them from doing so. We have massive amounts of government agency's that spy on the people on the US and gather intelligence at alarming rates. My point being the "war" isn't just being fought over seas it's being fought right here, right now.
The longer we say we are fighting a war on terror (of which can never be proven to be won) the longer it becomes acceptable to have your rights taken away. That's the quagmire right there.
The wars have increased recruitment and funding for Al Qaeda.
The consensus among security analysts is that the key to eliminating al-Qaeda as a threat is to transform the permissive political environment in which it operates in the Muslim world. Instead, the opposite has occurred — Muslim anger at the U.S. has reached an all-time high and continues to grow, driven by outrage at U.S. actions in Iraq and Afghanistan, and by Israel's actions against the Palestinians. The precipitous decline in support or sympathy for the U.S. in the Muslim world after 9/11 has meant fertile ground for al-Qaeda recruiters.
Why al-Qaeda Thrives - TIME
Here's Reagan talking about Osama's "freedom fighters"
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGm-4MRuGF0&feature=related]Afghanistan Freedom Fighters - YouTube[/ame]
The consensus among security analysts is that the key to eliminating al-Qaeda as a threat is to transform the permissive political environment in which it operates in the Muslim world. Instead, the opposite has occurred — Muslim anger at the U.S. has reached an all-time high and continues to grow, driven by outrage at U.S. actions in Iraq and Afghanistan, and by Israel's actions against the Palestinians. The precipitous decline in support or sympathy for the U.S. in the Muslim world after 9/11 has meant fertile ground for al-Qaeda recruiters.
Why al-Qaeda Thrives - TIME
Here's Reagan talking about Osama's "freedom fighters"
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGm-4MRuGF0&feature=related]Afghanistan Freedom Fighters - YouTube[/ame]
You are right. It is a quagmire. How do you propose to stop those that want you and I dead? My assumption being that you are not a muslim, if you are then lucky you. I would love to move out of this predicament with education and understanding, but it seems that our enemy is not listening.
They want us out of SA yet the rulers of SA want us there. They want us to abandon the free flow of oil, oil we paid for them to acquire, and yet use the proceeds from that oil to kill us.
Come on - you tell me. Fight them there or fight them here? They already have proven they are willing to come here.
Reagan was a propagandist. I do not want to fight in Afghanistan - but I do not want to fight in LA or NY either.
You tell me the solution to stopping those that want to kill the Jew first and the Christian next? You tell me the solution? Education is great - but how?
The Taliban never attacked within the USA, nor did Saddam. None of the hijackers were born in the USA. It's sketchy how they got into the US in the first place, and then were allowed to remain after intelligence was looking into them. CIA and/or FBI guys were warning that they were going to kill.
The Afghanistan war started with the Taliban being ousted, then the US quickly turned their attention to Saddam's armies. It was obvious that looking for Al Qaeda guys in caves and mountains was not the priority.
Intelligence and troops in helicopters was enough to get directly at Osama's house. Actually, helicopters didn't even have to go into Pakistan, as someone in the USA could have pressed a few buttons and launched missiles onto Osama's house.
Al Qaeda cells can be fought without large scale ground invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. The invasions did however, make it much more easier to build and secure a pipeline in Afghanistan and to get more access to oil in Iraq.
First you liberals think we should be in Afghanistan and no you change your mind. What is it? Saddam broke his treaty from 1991. What can I tell you he should have stuck to the treaty. He could have done any number of things - even let the inspectors in etc - but nooooo he wanted to play chicken.
It was Special Agent Mike Franks that warned them.... don't you watch TV? He later retired to Mexico out of frustration. By the way - you are starting to go off the deep end now.
So we started the war because we do not want to use our own resources? Given your implied conspiracy above, you think we really are using the worlds energy so we can corner the market in the future? Looks like a good strategy, we certainly have enough.
You still have not told me how to stop those that want to kill me. I do not want to kill them - but they do want to kill me. My religion does not want to kill them - they are the ones with the problem.
Not a "liberal", but I also never noticed anything saying there was majority support among "liberals" for an invasion of Afghanistan.
So?
I'm stating facts, you can interpret them however you want.
It's no big secret that they (they is not just the US) wanted a pipeline in Afghanistan and more oil access in Iraq and that the government of those countries were preventing it. This was all written and talked about publicly way before 9/11, by the likes of Dick Cheney, as I already pointed out.
I thought I made it clear that the main thing is to keep them out of the USA.
I wouldn't be too surprised if there were at least a few KKK guys in Alabama who would like to kill people. How would you stop them? By forcing your fellow citizens to spend millions to have the national guard set up camp all over the state?
Then you did not pay attention to the news pre-2008.
Soooo....... we went back into Iraq. He broke the rules he agreed to.
I hate it when my obscure references are glossed over. By the way you implied that there was a conspiracy when you referred to the situation as "sketchy". Like I said it is fully documented that Special Agent Mike Franks warned the US Govt about this before it happened - that is why he left for Mexico and removed himself from society. Unfortunately he was mysteriously killed, even that Mossad Agent could not save him
They want a lot of things. You cannot blame every war on what they want. You think they took down the Twin Towers too just to get their pipeline and for Bush to have revenge on Saddam? Really?
Why now you are just being smart ass, implying I have an Us vs Them mentality. I do not mind any Muslim that does not want to kill me. I do mind the ones that want to kill me. I do not mind any Muslim that believes in Natural Law and Human Rights. I do mind a Muslim that endorses everything from dancing boys to killing shameful rape victims, to throwing acid on a girl without repercussion because she rebuffs a man. I do mind the Muslim that finds it justified to beat his wife for having a cell phone. But then again - it is not because they are Muslim, it is because they are violating the rights of others.
You are right - it is not enough to just keep "them" out of the USA> We should protect the human rights of people all around the world shouldn't we? You really want to open that can of worms?
As for the KKK - they are over rated. If they get out of hand they get stomped on by society, same for street gangs and organized crime. These organizations do not advocate nor implement mass killings, now if you want to talk about the worldwide genocide of planned parenthood, well that is another discussion isn't it.
Which had nothing to do with preventing us from having to fight people in LA or NY.
Ah yes, Mike Franks.
Do they wage war to try to achieve things that they do not want?
Wasn't trying to imply anything. What if Al Quada groups were discovered in Alabama? How would that be handled?
Yes, it is. :uhoh2:
obviously we disagree.
Ah yes, Mike Franks.
I know poor attempt at comic relief.
Not certain. Most likely we would do nothing unless they were doing something themselves. In fact we would probably fall all over ourselves to make certain we did not treat them differently. We would probably raid, bug, and wire tap the local quilting club before we checked up on the local terrorist group - unless they are all white nazi's then we shoot them and invade their compounds.
A better question might be what would the average person have chosen to donate to the efforts?
Nothing?
$400 for air strikes?
$400 for covert troop missions?
$4,000 for a ground invasion?
A combination of the above?
Keep in mind that this would be in addition to the amount that they were already paying in taxes that goes to defense.
I keep asking the same question. What should we do to protect ourselves from those that want to kill us?
or how about what I said above.
9/11 cost the economy $1 trllion. How much would another attack have cost? Most likely more. The wars up to 2010 only cost $1 trillion.
You act like you are in a vacuum - like nothing would have happened had we not implemented a deterrent and a cost to those states that sponsor terror - do you read my previous analysis and posts?
We're just going to go around in circles. Yes, terrorists have been killed, but the invasions have caused even more people to become terrorists. It's not like there were originally 1,000 terrorists, nobody was allowed to join after that, and now we got it down to 300. There are more terrorists now than before 9/11. That's according to the people who track this stuff for a living.
The real scary thing is, while we are busy funneling money into further occupations and "defense" efforts on other countries' soil, these kids whose parents and families/friends lives have been destroyed in the name of our freedoms are quickly growing up with an all new breed of anti-American hate. I'd imagine this breed of hate will produce atrocities that we can only hope never occur.
Give it 10-15 years and I am sure a lot of these guys you see throwing rocks at soldiers and mourning the loss of their grandmothers in drone strikes will have grandioise plans drawn up and put into action that make 9/11 look "minor". Wouldn't it make more sense to spend our money on building TRUE long-term/good will relationships with these people based around EDUCATION, charity (real charity overseen by thirdparties not just cash handouts with no oversight) (ie: this is what your dictators are doing, they need to go or else your citizens pay the price for inept brutal leadership, a la arab spring style though not perfect by any means), instead of supporting the people in power that corrupt and control these people to begin with and/or then punishing the citizens for the actions of a few? Logic tells me that when you "blanket" an entire country as terrorists and treat them and punish them as such because of a minority within their own population, that you inevitably anger the "locals" and end up creating a whole lot more "terrorists" than you originally started with. What makes you think this is NOT currently happening right now? These kids are growing up with REAL reasons to hate us because we keep giving them a reason to hate us. I would imagine most of us here would react the same way if the situation was reversed and people were occupying/killing in our towns.
The farmers and herders are being punished for the actions of a few in their country. Once we "punish" them (even if we are successful at killing one "suspected" terrorist out of 5 obvious civilians for example), we act like we "win" in our American society. Wouldn't you be a little upset after decades of this happening to your people and your way of life, all being done in the name of another countries' citizens' freedoms?
These people (the normal everyday you and me citizens) are not BORN looking to kill Americans, they are looking TO LIVE PERIOD. And we are idiotic to assume that playing "whack a mole" in the mountains over there is doing us more good than harm in the long run. They say "Oh well now you see the terrorists are on the run and they are too busy to attack us, so we ARE winning". If you honestly believe that we are winning this war on an "idea" long-term with aggressive overseas military action and oppressive tactics on their citizens, well...then we disagree I guess and I would REALLY hope you are correct...
@jsherloc - who is filling your head with such nonsense? I cannot believe that these are your own thoughts - what has influenced you to believe this way?
Your argument needs to flow both ways - look at what you have written and see how it applies if the parties were reversed.
Your argument needs to flow both ways - look at what you have written and see how it applies if the parties were reversed.