Social Proof at Work - Cialdini

m0rtal

m0rtal

King of the Jungle
Jul 3, 2007
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Toronto
I know a lot of you have read Influence by Cialdini...remember that incident in NY where close to 40 people watched as a killer stabbed a woman to death and nobody did anything nor call the police (until after she died)? I don't think I need to explain why this happened on a psychological level as I'm sure most of you know.

Here's a great example of the same thing at work...it's pretty amazing how a completely different situation had the exact same result (no help). The social effect is so powerful it's just fucking mind blowing. The reactions from people and the media are pretty much like in the NY incident...people are stunned.

Why did nobody help, asks mugged man, 79 - thestar.com
 


I got head butted by an ex-army dude in a club
while 4 my close friends at the time where standing
looking 1 meeter away from me..

I got knocked out for a fraction of a second and
fell on the ground, my friends didn't even move
until I got up and started to walk towards the guy.

After that all my friends started walking, after a
day one of my friends, the biggest and the strongest
said to me, that he had no idea what he was suppose
to do and was waiting to see what others are going
to do.

I am glad that incident happened, it thought me a
lot I realized that most of us are walking around like
zombies, we don't know our personal bounder, we
don't what we want out of life, what will accept
from others and what we wont.

We basically have been programmed that when
something like this happens, we should stay out
of it, its none of our business and that we should
let the police take care of it.

Anyway when the time came for me to give report
to the cops, the first question they asked me was
if I had given the guy permission to head butt me.

That question was very painful because it just
shattered my confidence in the legal system, that
people could basically do anything and get away
with it..

That question was also very sweet because it woke
me up and made me realize that my health and well
being is my own responsibility and no one else's.

Anyway the olden rule of "an eye for an eye" is the
truly golden rule and fuck what Gandhi says..
 
what's also interesting is that if ONE person were to step up, the rest would follow suit. I've been the catalyst countless times in my life.
 
OpenMind said:
I got head butted by an ex-army dude in a club
while 4 my close friends at the time where standing
looking 1 meeter away from me..

I got knocked out for a fraction of a second and
fell on the ground, my friends didn't even move
until I got up and started to walk towards the guy.

After that all my friends started walking, after a
day one of my friends, the biggest and the strongest
said to me, that he had no idea what he was suppose
to do and was waiting to see what others are going
to do.
Click to expand...

^^^
Needs friends who actually have balls and don't react like schoolgirls to the inevitable.
 
OpenMind said:
Anyway when the time came for me to give report
to the cops, the first question they asked me was
if I had given the guy permission to head butt me.

That question was very painful because it just
shattered my confidence in the legal system, that
people could basically do anything and get away
with it..
Click to expand...

If you've never gotten in a drunken headbutting contest you haven't really lived.

At least now I know they are common enough that cops know about them. lol
 
ChrisS said:
If you've never gotten in a drunken headbutting contest you haven't really lived.

At least now I know they are common enough that cops know about them. lol
Click to expand...

You've never been headbutted
by an ex-army dude, its quit fatal..

Bystander Effect while it might be
true in western countries its not
always the same in Asia and Middle
east.

If you are in trouble or there is a
fight on the street everyone and
their grandma well be well jump in
to break the fight.
 
m0rtal said:
I know a lot of you have read Influence by Cialdini...remember that incident in NY where close to 40 people watched as a killer stabbed a woman to death and nobody did anything nor call the police (until after she died)? I don't think I need to explain why this happened on a psychological level as I'm sure most of you know.

Here's a great example of the same thing at work...it's pretty amazing how a completely different situation had the exact same result (no help). The social effect is so powerful it's just fucking mind blowing. The reactions from people and the media are pretty much like in the NY incident...people are stunned.
Click to expand...

Thats soem scary shit ... but its true, a lot of people just FREEZE when something like this happens. Most people are just frightened.

Nick
 
GerardWon said:
^^^
Needs friends who actually have balls and don't react like schoolgirls to the inevitable.
Click to expand...
real talk.

this is why i tell everyone it's important to have yugoslavian friends. when its time to do what you have to do, but no one is there, the yugoslavs will be there.....
 
That's why in an emergency situation they always tell you to point at one person and say "You, call 911 now!" because if you just scream out "Somebody call 911!" everyone will assume someone else is doing it.

If you're in trouble and need help, single one person out and the whole group will follow.
 
If I was a witness to a situation like that, my concern (and reason for not getting involved ) is that the assailant would be packing something more than just a headbutt (i.e. knife, gun,etc).
 
case in point:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMIuG3HvV0Y"]YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.[/ame]
 
I wonder how the events in the video would have transpired if the following were true...

1. each person in the pizza parlor was carrying a firearm, including the assailant, victim, bystanders, and shop employees

2. there was no fear of an arbitrary ruling from a monopolistic court system that might ruin the life of someone who chooses to intervene on behalf of the victim

Cialdini was obviously on to something important about the tendency of people to avoid involvement and look to others for signs of appropriate behavior. But I think he misses a key issue (yes, I've read his book). If you're bored and have nothing to do, read on.

Here's a question for you...

Suppose you lived on the 2nd story of a building. Directly beneath you is a pizza parlor. Below your window, near the sidewalk, a young women is removing things from the back of her vehicle. She is approached by a man. She does not know the man and after a few moments, rebuffs his advances. The man responds in a manner that is confrontational. They argue. He grows angry. He kills her.

You watch the entire episode from your 2nd story perch. The owner of the pizza parlor beneath you does the same from within his shop.

If you had a licensed firearm, would you intervene? Would you help the young lady?

As it turns out, this is an episode that happened within the last year. If memory serves, the lady was killed with a knife, implying the attacker lacked a firearm. Neither the man on the 2nd story nor the pizza parlor owner intervened to prevent the murder, despite the first man owning a firearm. The question is, why not?

Here is my suspicion. Had he done so and been forced to discharge his firearm to protect the lady, he would have exposed himself to a possible prison term.

Let's go back to the man who was mugged (from the OP). Suppose you had a firearm. Given our current system of law, would you have intervened to help him, knowing that doing so might expose you to a prison term?

I'm convinced one of the reasons people avoid involvement in such things is the uncertainty of an arbitrary court ruling that may ruin their life.
 
m0rtal said:
I know a lot of you have read Influence by Cialdini...remember that incident in NY where close to 40 people watched as a killer stabbed a woman to death and nobody did anything nor call the police (until after she died)? I don't think I need to explain why this happened on a psychological level as I'm sure most of you know.

Here's a great example of the same thing at work...it's pretty amazing how a completely different situation had the exact same result (no help). The social effect is so powerful it's just fucking mind blowing. The reactions from people and the media are pretty much like in the NY incident...people are stunned.

Why did nobody help, asks mugged man, 79 - thestar.com
Click to expand...

Kitty Genovese was her name. I grew up in that neighborhood.
 
Trademark said:
I wonder how the events in the video would have transpired if the following were true...

1. each person in the pizza parlor was carrying a firearm, including the assailant, victim, bystanders, and shop employees

2. there was no fear of an arbitrary ruling from a monopolistic court system that might ruin the life of someone who chooses to intervene on behalf of the victim

Cialdini was obviously on to something important about the tendency of people to avoid involvement and look to others for signs of appropriate behavior. But I think he misses a key issue (yes, I've read his book). If you're bored and have nothing to do, read on.

Here's a question for you...

Suppose you lived on the 2nd story of a building. Directly beneath you is a pizza parlor. Below your window, near the sidewalk, a young women is removing things from the back of her vehicle. She is approached by a man. She does not know the man and after a few moments, rebuffs his advances. The man responds in a manner that is confrontational. They argue. He grows angry. He kills her.

You watch the entire episode from your 2nd story perch. The owner of the pizza parlor beneath you does the same from within his shop.

If you had a licensed firearm, would you intervene? Would you help the young lady?

As it turns out, this is an episode that happened within the last year. If memory serves, the lady was killed with a knife, implying the attacker lacked a firearm. Neither the man on the 2nd story nor the pizza parlor owner intervened to prevent the murder, despite the first man owning a firearm. The question is, why not?

Here is my suspicion. Had he done so and been forced to discharge his firearm to protect the lady, he would have exposed himself to a possible prison term.

Let's go back to the man who was mugged (from the OP). Suppose you had a firearm. Given our current system of law, would you have intervened to help him, knowing that doing so might expose you to a prison term?

I'm convinced one of the reasons people avoid involvement in such things is the uncertainty of an arbitrary court ruling that may ruin their life.
Click to expand...

I'll have to slightly disagree there because you're using a specific situation to support your theory. Or err, guns. Which is not what this thread is about. Nor should it really apply to the subway incident considering in Canada we can't even have guns for self defense or for protecting your property. (Yes I know, it's fucked).

In the incident you mention, without risking being implicated criminally or injured in any way physically, what is the best they could have done? The question you should be asking in the situation you're using is, did either of them call the police? And if so, how long did it take them? Worst case scenario, if she dies, they have a much better chance of catching the guy the sooner they get there or, if she's still alive saving her.

In both of the situations I mentioned in the OP, people had the opportunity to get involved without putting themselves in jeopardy (physically or criminally). In the NYC one all they had to do was call the police before she got killed, the attack was something like half an hour if I remember correctly?

In the subway incident someone could have easily pressed the emergency button in a car full of people without the attackers noticing. Now, I wasn't there so I obviously don't know the specifics but I can tell you those cars are fairly busy at 8:30 pm on a Saturday (which is probably why the social effect was so powerful). Heck, no one even hit it after the incident once the attackers got off.

So the other question also is, on a subway car full of people, EVEN assuming you have this gun - do you really pull it out and start shooting at the attackers and risk everyone's life? You do the best you can without being stupid - in this case hit the damn emergency button! But of course, you have to wait till someone hits it first, because only then do you realize it's what you should be doing.
 
m0rtal said:
I'll have to slightly disagree there because you're using a specific situation to support your theory. Or err, guns. Which is not what this thread is about. Nor should it really apply to the subway incident considering in Canada we can't even have guns for self defense or for protecting your property. (Yes I know, it's fucked).

In the incident you mention, without risking being implicated criminally or injured in any way physically, what is the best they could have done? The question you should be asking in the situation you're using is, did either of them call the police? And if so, how long did it take them? Worst case scenario, if she dies, they have a much better chance of catching the guy the sooner they get there or, if she's still alive saving her.

In both of the situations I mentioned in the OP, people had the opportunity to get involved without putting themselves in jeopardy (physically or criminally). In the NYC one all they had to do was call the police before she got killed, the attack was something like half an hour if I remember correctly?

In the subway incident someone could have easily pressed the emergency button in a car full of people without the attackers noticing. Now, I wasn't there so I obviously don't know the specifics but I can tell you those cars are fairly busy at 8:30 pm on a Saturday (which is probably why the social effect was so powerful). Heck, no one even hit it after the incident once the attackers got off.

So the other question also is, on a subway car full of people, EVEN assuming you have this gun - do you really pull it out and start shooting at the attackers and risk everyone's life? You do the best you can without being stupid - in this case hit the damn emergency button! But of course, you have to wait till someone hits it first, because only then do you realize it's what you should be doing.
Click to expand...


or you could go jodie foster on a bitch

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMXm_CyCy-M"]YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.[/ame]

i used to live in NY...saw some pretty good fights on those subways late at night riding up past 96th on the red line...nobody would EVER intervene, and for good reason- they don't want to get fucked up too. shit happens all the time. most ppl don't carry guns on the subway anyways
 
If you're getting attacked you're supposed to yell "Fire" so that people will actually come running.
 
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