The Practicality of Creating A Nation

Never heard you say it, thanks for repeating yourself


Up for bid: one aircraft carrier, lightly used, with ski-jump | DVICE

Article is from about 2 years ago, but that sounds like a complete bullshit price TBH. Maybe $50M or so could make something happen.

Just grass in the deck ... make a park, some tennis courts, driving range and you've got something that I'd live on especially considering a dock could be built close to or attached that you could park a real yacht in. The rooms would have to be completely redone, no way anyone would live in bunks but I can see a remodel with 100 or so suites working.

A REAL carrier is going to run you 500m after fuel + furnishing. I'm not talking about a old , POS russian one but a western built nuke carrier similar to the Foch that was sold to Brazil for 12m. One that would have enough fuel/power to run 20-25 years in international water without the absolute need for tenders. You could easily use excess heat to run distillation and have a endless fresh water supply.

Additional benefits would include a landing area for helicopters & aircraft (duh) and most larger ones have enough room for 5,000 people on them. Of course you couldn't fit that many in after modernizing it, but I imagine you could comfortably fit 1k+ on one.

Most carriers also have a tender system so that docking additional vessels is quite easy. Most carriers don't fly food & such in, they have small tending vessels dock with it.

The various seasted ideas I've seen are utilizing cost structures that are MUCH higher than a quality aircraft carrier with less amenities & space. One estimate I saw figured around 5 billion for a fully stocked seastead.
 


I can't find the article now, but it was quite a large UK website like telegraph or BBC that had a good article on why seasteading will never work.

I say good article because as much as I like the idea and want to believe it will work, large government will never let it happen unless it has the support of powerful tax dodgers who can lobby government.

Why do you think cayman islands, guernsey and gibraltar don't get shut down by some super international law or UN sanction? It's because so many rich and important people lobby government to leave them alone. Therefore, what these places actually are, are government SANCTIONED tax paradises.

The reason this is going to be so difficult, if not impossible, and why so many attempts have failed in the past (I'm sure you can find some), is that an actual REAL free society is a huge threat to the status quo, and a huge threat that people will actually use it, and people will be tempted to emmigrate. How long do you think "they" will let this happen?

Again, I must emphasise I love the idea and I subscribe to any email list like blueseed where this might be a possibility, but the reality is this is highly unlikely to happen (without the support of the international banking cartel who want to route money through it)
 
If you're going to spend that sort of money, why not buy part of a country from an impoverished government. The GDP of Haiti is $7.27 Bn. I'm sure you could buy a good chunk of it for a few Bn, and spend the rest on a big fucking fence. The problem with seasteading that I can see is that you're always going to be dependent on land based nations for food etc. That means you're vulnerable to political pressure through trade embargoes etc if you piss them off.
 
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"Good luck my brethren."
 
@shocker, people aren't doing it because the ROI isn't there. Wait until healthcare in the US gets super poor quality in another generation or so.

Then you'll see boats sitting just outside the territorial waters, ferrying people back and forth with helicopters for day surgery.

People aren't doing it because they don't want to die.

Government = Mafia

You can buy the land. You can create the 'nation'. But they will take it from you if it is worth anything. By they, I mean groups of people more powerful than your group (be it the US gov, pirates, the Chinese, etc, it doesn't matter)

Capitalism and a civilized exchange of goods based on a common currency works on the micro level, but the macro level works just as it has since the dawn of time; the more powerful/capable dominate. Money, agreements and what not are there just as symbolic shit, agreed upon based on the underlying understandings of strength.

Look at what has happened to the leaders of nations when they want to do something as 'drastic' as sell their own property (like oil) in a currency other than USD. What do you think will happen to the leaders who try something WAY more drastic and break away from the current government systems? (don't give Venezuela/Cuba as an example, dominant leaders need adversaries that are incompetent to justify war expenditure (calling it defense expenditure is ridiculous) while not posing a threat. If your system is viable, it will be a threat and they will destroy it)
 
@shocker, people aren't doing it because the ROI isn't there. Wait until healthcare in the US gets super poor quality in another generation or so.

That's an interesting statement. I would think that current conditions should not much matter if the free market can do better than the regulated market.
 
That's an interesting statement. I would think that current conditions should not much matter if the free market can do better than the regulated market.
Capital intensive projects need a high ROI to validate the investment.

That's why you see new oil discoveries and technology every time the price of oil goes high. High prices justify making major investments.

A key Austrian insight, is that prices are very important information in markets. They communicate where there is more supply than demand, and more demand than supply. They help entrepreneurs decide which opportunities to pursue. If something is low margin, the industry is probably very well served, and new entrants should bring some major competitive advantage if they want to capture market share.

Conversely, high prices indicate the opportunity to test new approaches and technologies. High prices are typical where competition doesn't exist.

This is why the US healthcare debate is so fallacious. The entire market is government regulated, and that is why prices of care are so high. If there was competition, you'd see affordable healthcare the way you see affordable computers.
 
cont'd

When governments meddle in markets, either through regulation or redistribution, they distort the price mechanism. This sends bad or false signals, which inevitably leads to economic hardship. Indeed, the 2008 crash was primarily caused by the federal reserve manipulating the interest rate (the price of money). This lead to all sorts of malinvestment, which eventually got liquidated in an economic meltdown.

When it comes to intervention, what goes up, must come down. There are no shortcuts to progress.
 
I think a more practical idea right now is being a perpetual traveler (PT) or getting residency/citizenship in a country that doesn't tax out of country income.
 
No physical land will do because of the "people" problem. The general population is dumb as dirt and freeloaders exist everywhere and the only way for this to work is to completely start from scratch ... you'd have to pull a Moses and exterminate everyone to have any chance for a thriving society.

This is why the property owners would be able to discern who can and can't use their land. Just as we don't allow everyone into our home, the property owners would not allow everyone into their city.

Having a nuke in your utopia would cause war to be declared immediately. The only possible way to defend is to use tech or bribe every country that comes knocking.

I think it would be the opposite. Having a nuke would probably deter threats. If there was a nuke it would be less likely for a country like the United States to mess with us because they would know that we could retaliate against them. If we didn't have a nuke or some type of advanced weaponry they would have no reason not to invade us and keep us from stealing their citizens.

Serious questions,
who pays for infrastructure?

Infrastructure is paid by the property owners/investors. This is an initial investment like any other business and it would be best to start with the slimmest infrastructure initially. Things like energy, Internet and roads would probably be higher on the list of priorities.

Privatized police force, what's their system of accountability?

Competition.

To add to this:

People
Is there really away to fill a nation with only "high quality" people, especially with ambitious entrepreneurial types? Even tiny companies struggle to fill their ranks without the occasional douchebag. Sure, there are people who truly care about their neighbors and want everyone to do well, but won't sooner or later won't someone come along who wants more property, more power, more pussy etc? Hell, I think most people lean more towards the latter.

As for regulating behavior by voting people off the island, what stops it from becoming a political power struggle? If you want to do something that's against the greater good, you'll naturally start to build alliances with other people who have their own agendas. Then the people who were willing to share will be forced to form their own alliances just to protect what's rightfully there's.

I think there is a way to fill a nation with only high quality people. Sure there are going to be problematic people and there will be ways to deal with them. I don't see power as being a problem so long as competition is allowed. As long as people are free to choose who to do commerce with it really doesn't matter who is powerful and who owns the most property. Property owners will have to continually be running a profitable city/area by providing things people need. If they don't these people will go to an area that does provide what they want. Property owners will not be able to rest on their laurels like many of the government monopoly owners do today. They will constantly be needing to put their capital to good use.

Each property owner will manage their property as they see fit, and will most likely form similar generally established rules as other property owners. The main point is they can't force people to pay for anything so they had better figure out how to get people to voluntarily participate in their area. Additionally, the best bet to keep things in check would be to seed another location/business elsewhere and let them compete.
 
Defense
It really does seem to fall apart here. How do you enforce your sovereignty as a nation-state with no army, no police force, AND no leadership?

There would be an army/defense system. The "business/corporation" would have an army for the sole purpose of defense. Defense would be one of the most important parts as shown in my original 3 bullet point challenges. The goal would be to focus less on army and small stuff like that and more on highly destructive weaponry to avoid threats altogether. I think defense is one of the trickiest parts of this whole endeavor and would really need to be thought out.

Police
What does a "privatized" police force even mean? It doesn't sound like you're talking about a privately contracted force that enforces the rule of law...so then do they basically become private militias for their respective employers? Sounds like you're going to end up with a warlord situation. How do you non-violently handle disputes with people looking to take property by force?

Sufficient prosperity might be able to prevent full-scale physical anarchy, but what will stop the powerful from preying on the weak?

Property owners will be able to violently defend property. It will be initiation of force that will not be tolerated. Property owners will defend their property as they see fit and private police will protect property to the specifications described in their protection contract.

Competition will keep the powerful from preying on the weak. Money will only be going to services which fulfill a necessary purpose in an ethical way. Will the super rich at some point have their own high-end private police force? Probably. But they're going to be going up against the even larger companies that are funded through all the small guys.

Courts
What do "private" courts mean? Sounds like courts essentially become a form of mediation/arbitration in this scenario. So how do you handle crime or tort? How would you enforce a criminal punishment (if there is such a thing). How do you handle judgment enforcement? More boycotting? If anyone can start their own private "court", who's authority would the boycotters defer to?

With private courts, what the heck is the "common law"? What is the common law without the rule of law? If anyone can be a judge as long as 2 people are willing to turn to them for guidance, how do you enforce binding authority?

Also, how do provide protection (however minimal) against the "tyranny of the majority", without some form of rule of law?

Most courts will be decided on before commerce is done. You don't have to do commerce with businesses that don't have a dispute outline to your liking.

In the case of crimes like murder or things of this nature it will be up to the victim/victim's family to decide on the proper retribution in conjunction with the proper legal council. Should retribution not be met these individuals will be outcasts in society and have a hard time surviving. Crime will not be something that is easy or even favorable to pull off like it is now. You're going to have a hard time participating in a society while doing crime. You're going to pretty much be on your own or with the backing of your private mafia which is going to be highly expensive for them.

Common law will be the law that is generally adopted as the general set of rules that covers roughly 99% of all disputes. Laws will be predefined before commercial transactions with property. Before doing most things you will know what you are getting yourself into before-hand. Not every property owner will have the same law and there won't be an all-encompassing law above all. Law will be as people see fit. 90% of people will probably decide on the same types of law. But people may also differ on the other 10% of the law. Where they differ they can do business with property owners who differ in their way. People who have law that they don't like they don't have to do business with.

Education
This is probably the most realistic aspect of the whole plan. Still, the world's most successful nations all seem to have some sort of mandatory/free formal education. What about poor ppl who can't afford to educate their kids? How does that not become a tiered society after a couple of generations? You could argue causation =/= correlation, and you'd be right, but still...its a legitimate concern.

Frick, with the Internet, technology, no-State mandated educational rules and open competition education would be so cheap. State sponsored education isn't free, it's more expensive than private education. Poor people who can't afford education would be educated different ways. As education is an area of interest of mine, I would probably create a school where payment is done through advertising or perhaps some form of future partnership with students. I would gladly educate students for free now to make a lot more off them later. It's a fair concern but I really do think the private market would take care of this and I also think education would be so incredibly cheap that it would be pretty easy for pretty much anyone to have a very good education. Also, majority of education comes through experience and doing rather than BS like rote memorization and trivial facts. I'll have people come work for me and educate them on the job. I will educate people as they move up the ranks working for me. A fair concern, but I see this as probably the least problematic area and most enticing area to explore.
 
Money
Until people start gaming whatever de facto monetary system arises to replace the inefficiencies of bartering, but there really are no easy answers here, and much bigger problems to worry about...

People will no doubt game money but as long as their are competing currencies I don't really see a real issue.

Poverty
I'm not saying I'm a fan of welfare, especially not the kind you see in the US, but there is a reason all 1st world nations have SOME form of support for the impoverished.

I suppose if your society is rich enough, there will still be enough charity to make sure no one starves so that's not a concern (unless you have a recession).

But in a society with no law enforcement and no laws, what will stop someone who can't make an honest living from turning to crime? Do we just kick them out once they lose their job/their business fails? Maybe that would be preferable to welfare, but then who makes that decision? Who enforces it? Do you kick out their family too? As an enlightened society, do we allow homeless people, as long as we can somehow make sure they're not breaking any laws?

The reason all 1st world nations have welfare is because they think that is the best way to handle poverty even though it isn't. Poverty is a large topic.

For starters, define poverty. What is poverty to one person is opulence to another. And who's to say people shouldn't live in poverty? Who's to say people shouldn't live in wealth? People should be free to live by whatever measure they are given in life. Being poor could be better than being wealthy. It's all perspective.

But let's say poverty is bad. Giving somebody a fish is much worse than teaching somebody to fish. This somewhat ties into education again. Since welfare gives somebody a fish it is clearly a broken model. Poverty is diminished by people educating themselves and adopting the habits and principles of those wealthier than themselves.

History of America shows that this was clearly the case with the black population as they assimilated into the American culture. Before welfare and all the other government BS they were actually rising out of poverty and poverty was being diminished. When the US dollar actually had value people were able to buy a lot of things for very little money. I really think poverty would be a small concern in an area where so much wealth and innovation would reign supreme.

But if there was poverty so be it. People could help them as they saw fit if they wanted or people could leave them to be if they wanted. There most certainly wouldn't be anyone forcing another person to do something about poverty.

Taxes
Like thelorax said, who builds the infrastructure? I'm not a fan of taxes, but how do you manage a nation-state of any significant scale without east some nominal collection for infrastructure? Is every road going to be a toll road? Monetized through ads (lulz)? How does that work?

Even when you're living in a private condo you have to pay fees. If you don't pay...they kick you out. I bitch about condo fees all the time, but honestly I couldn't suggest a better system - no one is fixing the elevator or taking out the garbage or fixing broken common areas out of the goodness of their heart. You could force ppl to take turns, but then its just another form of tax - a much less efficient one.

And without a reserve fund, what do you do if something catastrophic happens...just hope everyone has enough money set aside to fix it? If a 1000 person building can't function smoothly without some sort of enforced contribution, how would a nation?

Yes I agree. There wouldn't be taxes in the sense of forcing anyone to pay taxes. There would, however, be costs for things. People would pay for stuff. And hopefully, that should would be things people need. The city owners would devise whichever creative and efficient methods they could to pay for the costs of the things people used. Since people would use things on an individual level and not a collective level they really wouldn't care. We have no problem paying for things we want. It's when we pay for things we don't want that somebody else does. That's when we get pissed.

Things like roads could be a toll fee that is done digitally through GPS in your vehicle or something like this. I'm sure road owners would come up with a good way to pay for their roads while keeping customers happy.

Leadership
What would stop someone powerful from seizing leadership eventually, whether through force, money or shrewd political maneuvering?

I think this could happen and this would be the trickiest thing to prevent... especially when we have all these other non-ancap societies that allow these kind of people to develop in. I think a reasonable answer would be to have 2 or more competing locations where people could flee to. If there was an ancap society in Africa and an ancap society in South America competing to be the beacon of freedom then I think it would be a lot harder for a group of people to collude and take over an area. Obviously it's possible, but it's also not profitable. So it really depends on how they would go about it and I think the only safeguard against that would be as many other Ancap societies as possible to minimize the ability for monopoly. It's hard because land is only so limited and we are in that transition phase. Once we got enough people to open their area up to Anarcho-Capitalism I think there would be a tipping point where it would no longer be possible for mafias to establish. Sure, they could on a small scale, but with enough Ancap societies, maybe 10% or 20% of the world, there would come a point where it would be too expensive and there would be too many alternatives for people to go for the mafia to establish themselves as a global threat.

My thoughts anyway, obviously there is a lot of discussion to be had on these matters. Thanks for the great points.
 
I can't find the article now, but it was quite a large UK website like telegraph or BBC that had a good article on why seasteading will never work.

I say good article because as much as I like the idea and want to believe it will work, large government will never let it happen unless it has the support of powerful tax dodgers who can lobby government.

Why do you think cayman islands, guernsey and gibraltar don't get shut down by some super international law or UN sanction? It's because so many rich and important people lobby government to leave them alone. Therefore, what these places actually are, are government SANCTIONED tax paradises.

The reason this is going to be so difficult, if not impossible, and why so many attempts have failed in the past (I'm sure you can find some), is that an actual REAL free society is a huge threat to the status quo, and a huge threat that people will actually use it, and people will be tempted to emmigrate. How long do you think "they" will let this happen?

Again, I must emphasise I love the idea and I subscribe to any email list like blueseed where this might be a possibility, but the reality is this is highly unlikely to happen (without the support of the international banking cartel who want to route money through it)

I agree with you 100% which is why I kinda shy away from the sea idea. To me, that seems like a way to set up your own system while still playing within the rules of the true powers of the world. As soon as you do anything to remotely piss them off you're toast. You are not self-sustainable and you have no defense. So you're better off figuring out how to remove yourself from the status quo from the beginning. I think you have to have the defense aspect and the self-sustainability aspect. You need to be able to completely say F-off to the Queen and be able to defend yourself when she comes for you. Until this happens I don't think any of these other methods will fly.

People aren't doing it because they don't want to die.

Government = Mafia

You can buy the land. You can create the 'nation'. But they will take it from you if it is worth anything. By they, I mean groups of people more powerful than your group (be it the US gov, pirates, the Chinese, etc, it doesn't matter)

Capitalism and a civilized exchange of goods based on a common currency works on the micro level, but the macro level works just as it has since the dawn of time; the more powerful/capable dominate. Money, agreements and what not are there just as symbolic shit, agreed upon based on the underlying understandings of strength.

Look at what has happened to the leaders of nations when they want to do something as 'drastic' as sell their own property (like oil) in a currency other than USD. What do you think will happen to the leaders who try something WAY more drastic and break away from the current government systems? (don't give Venezuela/Cuba as an example, dominant leaders need adversaries that are incompetent to justify war expenditure (calling it defense expenditure is ridiculous) while not posing a threat. If your system is viable, it will be a threat and they will destroy it)

Totally agree. Which is why the real problem should be focused on from the start. That real problem most likely being: how do you defend yourself against the real power running this world? Because we know they are going to use force to come after you. How do you use the collective intelligence of the world's brightest to create systems of defense to defend against these people? How do we organize ourselves so good that we know they will be unable to take us over, and at the same time that we will be powerless once we do succeed? This is the real question that needs to be answered.
 
Glad other people think like myself. I'd require minimum IQ tests and heavy EQ evaluations (the most important) to be accepted into this "society." I'd also recommend using something like a 3 strike rule or such.

Buying an island is definitely feasable if we can put together a few billion.
 
Totally agree. Which is why the real problem should be focused on from the start. That real problem most likely being: how do you defend yourself against the real power running this world? Because we know they are going to use force to come after you.

lol use force to come after you and take what? Your coconut radio? your monkey butlers?
 
That real problem most likely being: how do you defend yourself against the real power running this world? Because we know they are going to use force to come after you. How do you use the collective intelligence of the world's brightest to create systems of defense to defend against these people?
You're seeing it as a violence problem, instead of a public relations + social cooperation problem.

Think asymmetrically.

Watch the seasteading presentations. They will give you a lot of ideas.

The stuff from 2009

The Seasteading Institute’s Videos on Vimeo
http://vimeo.com/seasteading/videos/page:6/sort:date
The Seasteading Institute’s Videos on Vimeo
 
This is why the US healthcare debate is so fallacious. The entire market is government regulated, and that is why prices of care are so high.

It's fallacious to think there is just one causation for US health care prices.

There are much lower prices everywhere else on earth. Many of these countries have less competition and more government involvement. Therefore we cannot solely blame those two things for high prices. Obesity rates in the US would be another contributing factor, for example.

I'm having deja vu, lol.



Total_health_expenditure_per_capita%2C_US_Dollars_PPP.png
 
It's fallacious to think there is just one causation for US health care prices.
Why is it fallacious?

There are much lower prices everywhere else on earth. Many of these countries have less competition and more government involvement.
This is really subjective and vague. Can you give specific examples?

Also, has it occurred to you that not all regulation is the same, and US health regulation is worse, regardless of its volume?

Don't forget (like you understand it anyway), the US directly subsidizes the price of healthcare through money printing, something other governments cannot do to the same extreme the US can with the world's reserve currency.

Therefore we cannot solely blame those two things for high prices.
Sure we can.

Obesity rates in the US would be another contributing factor, for example.
Can you show proof it is a contributing factor?
 
Why is it fallacious?

Basic economics says so?

The Determinants of Demand

The Determinants of Supply

This is really subjective and vague. Can you give specific examples?

from the other thread :

The world champion at controlling medical costs is Japan, even though its aging population is a profligate consumer of medical care. On average, the Japanese go to the doctor 15 times a year, three times the U.S. rate. They have twice as many MRI scans and X-rays. Quality is high; life expectancy and recovery rates for major diseases are better than in the United States. And yet Japan spends about $3,400 per person annually on health care; the United States spends more than $7,000...

In the United States, an MRI scan of the neck region costs about $1,500. In Japan, the identical scan costs $98. Under the pressure of cost controls, Japanese researchers found ways to perform the same diagnostic technique for one-fifteenth the American price. (And Japanese labs still make a profit.)


By T.R. Reid -- Five Myths About Health Care in the Rest of the World

Also, has it occurred to you that not all regulation is the same, and US health regulation is worse, regardless of its volume?

What "worse" regulations are Japan lacking? Germany? France?

Can you show proof it is a contributing factor?

If you don't understand how a 30% obesity rate puts more demand on the system than if it still was the same as in 1980, or if it was 3% like in Japan, then I don't know what to tell you.

If you don't understand how demand effects prices, then I also don't know what to tell you.


Seven Factors Driving Up Your Health Care Costs - Kaiser Health News

2. We're growing older, sicker and fatter.

As we get older, we tend to need more medical care. The baby boom generation is heading into retirement, with enrollment in Medicare set to grow by an average of 1.6 million people annually. Additionally, nearly half the U.S. population has one or more chronic conditions, among them asthma, heart disease or diabetes, which drive up costs. And two-thirds of adults are either overweight or obese, which can also lead to chronic illness and additional medical spending.