This Would Absolutely Never Happen In America

A true competitive private system would be lower costing than either, right now in the USA it's corporatist and allows for in-state monopolies due to anti-competitive laws. The reason I mentioned bypass specifically was my father was diagnosed as needing one, and soon. He was in surgery the next day, and has recovered since. 180 day wait would have killed him

My father has almost had 2 heart attacks, both of them where barley avoided by on coming symptoms but proper care. One equated to a bypass the other was an angioplasty. I'm 25 now and based on family history I'm projected for a heart attack by the age of 29 (probably sooner as I smoke). Waiting is not an option in my book. I'd rather be in debt for a long period of time than not be able to get the treatment I need when I need it.

Although our "universal health care" has changed from "helping everyone" to making sure everyone has "insurance" and requiring everyone to have health insurance. It is not the universal health care of the UK or of Canada, it has become even more bastardized.

We are so fucked it's not even funny.
 


My father has almost had 2 heart attacks, both of them where barley avoided by on coming symptoms but proper care. One equated to a bypass the other was an angioplasty. I'm 25 now and based on family history I'm projected for a heart attack by the age of 29 (probably sooner as I smoke).

We are so fucked it's not even funny.

Out of curiosity.. why don't you stop smoking? and maybe prolong the wait before your first inevitable heart attack?
 
Heroic!

For the sake of argument, let's suppose that relying upon the state to provide "affordable" health insurance for all citizens has zero impact on the level of service (i.e. wait times, approved procedures, etc.). It's a huge assumption (and wrong) and I'll come back to it in a moment. For now, let's set aside the tragic tales and focus solely on the economics.

From where does the money come to pay for this "affordable" insurance? Productive sectors.

Where does the money go? Unproductive sectors.

By what means does this transfer occur? Coercive action by the state.

The voluntary exchange of private property for something deemed valuable ultimately leads to a higher level of societal prosperity. Anything that gets in the way of that exchange retards that mechanism. Obstacles to a voluntary exchange include legislation, regulation, licensure, taxes, and other levers employed by the state.

Coercive state action that forces private property from productive sectors into unproductive sectors robs society of value. This is what the state means to do through health care reform.

Let's make it personal.

Suppose you make $700,000 this year. What would you do with the money that you will end up paying in taxes (whether to subsidize "affordable" health care, wars, social security, etc.)? Would you buy a car? Take a vacation? Invest in companies that will use your capital to fund research and development? Launch more companies?

There are thousands of ways you might spend/save/invest that money. And each time you voluntarily exchange money (or anything that may be considered private property) for something you want, you raise the level of prosperity in society.

Now, back to the alleged problems of wait times and unapproved procedures that supposedly exist in a state-managed health care system. In such a system, competition is retarded. Legislation prevents competition between states. Licensure lowers competition by reducing the number of doctors, nurses, and other caregivers that are available to help customers (i.e. patients). There are other hurdles to competition, but the above are sufficient to make the case.

In a free market with unrestrained competition, there would be no shortages. If someone wants to voluntarily acquire a thing, another person will produce it for a negotiated price. This is true between buyer and seller, laborer and employer, and caregiver and patient.

Because a state-managed health care system reduces competition, shortages of "goods" are a foregone conclusion. In this case, shortages are represented by caregivers and the services they provide to customers (patients). Because shortages must emerge when there are obstacles to competition, wait times are also a foregone conclusion.

If you want health care that is delivered at low cost with a higher level of quality, get rid of coercive state action and every hurdle to competition. Taxes, licensure, regulation, and the rest... throw 'em out. Put the customer in charge. Let him or her decide with whom they will enter into consensual contracts for services.

The tales of people suffering are truly tragic, but they muddy the waters by stirring viewers' emotions. Worse, they keep folks from learning the true long-term damage these reforms will cause.
 
Hmm.. I lived (and live) in a country with "socialized" healthcare.

NEVER has anyone who needed urgent medical attention have to wait, ever.

Two years back, my mom had a heart attack.
The got her into the hospital ASAP, which in that case meant by helicopter.

In order to do so, the helicopter had to land in the middle of an intersection. This being an older German town, there was barely 3 feet room on each side for the guy to land.

- In the dark -

Because to minimize risk, they had to cut all electricity going to that intersection.

He did it and they got her into the hospital and on the table as fast as humanly possible.

All this without wrecking our family's finances or chances for future insurance.

That's "socialized" healthcare for you.

::emp::
 
I've lived with socialized healthcare and without socialized healthcare.

I will NEVER live anywhere without socialized healthcare. Ever.
 
I'm projected for a heart attack by the age of 29 (probably sooner as I smoke). Waiting is not an option in my book.
Waiting is not an option, but being a burden on the healthcare system by continuing to engage in a voluntary behavior that you know puts you at higher risk for that heart attack is an option.

Fuck everything else thrown around in this thread, that post above is what's wrong with America. That effects private insurance, and drives up the cost of Medicaid and Medicare, which definitely need overhauls.

09.16.98 - $72.7 Billion: Smoking’s Annual Health Care Cost
 
Hmm.. I lived (and live) in a country with "socialized" healthcare.

NEVER has anyone who needed urgent medical attention have to wait, ever.

Two years back, my mom had a heart attack.
The got her into the hospital ASAP, which in that case meant by helicopter.

In order to do so, the helicopter had to land in the middle of an intersection. This being an older German town, there was barely 3 feet room on each side for the guy to land.

- In the dark -

Because to minimize risk, they had to cut all electricity going to that intersection.

He did it and they got her into the hospital and on the table as fast as humanly possible.

All this without wrecking our family's finances or chances for future insurance.

That's "socialized" healthcare for you.

::emp::


Likewise, living in Vancouver BC, I have never known anyone that had an urgent need for treatment go without. Yes there are horror stories, as there are in every country, but it's not the norm.
 
Once you accept that there is no such thing as health insurance - with the exception of catastrophic care for accidents - the debate ends.

It's all about health care dollars and how to manage them.

Insurance implies grouped risk. 1 out of 1000 houses might burn down each year. So we all kick in to the fire insurance pool.

Health care is different. We all need healthcare - and frequently. There is a very high chance that any given person will visit a doctor within a year. At that point it is no longer about distributing risk. It becomes a financial management activity.
 
Likewise, living in Vancouver BC, I have never known anyone that had an urgent need for treatment go without. Yes there are horror stories, as there are in every country, but it's not the norm.

Yes, and your crowd you hang out and hear from are all younger people. I am not saying canadas system is shit or anything but the fact is you guys have waits and come south for surgeries. If canadas healthcare was so great then why would the people from the great system start opening private practices?

Again, not bashing you guys but if it was so Awesome, and there were no issues getting life saving treatment then there would be no need or market for private practices in canada.
 
NEVER has anyone who needed urgent medical attention have to wait, ever.

Do you live in a very populated part of Germany?

Would this have a role in gauging comparisons of socialized health care in other countries? I would think that the fact that the US has over 3x the population of Germany could possibly impact the number of cases that hospitals would be full (although I'm sure we have many more hospitals than Germany). Also the fact that US is extremely obese would lead you to believe a higher % of people would need to be treated.

I'm kind of a political newb, just throwing ideas out there.

I just don't think we can point to the examples of "working" socialized health care and say "Look, that's what will happen to us!"
 
Yes, and your crowd you hang out and hear from are all younger people. I am not saying canadas system is shit or anything but the fact is you guys have waits and come south for surgeries. If canadas healthcare was so great then why would the people from the great system start opening private practices?

Again, not bashing you guys but if it was so Awesome, and there were no issues getting life saving treatment then there would be no need or market for private practices in canada.

And the US steals away Canadian health care workers (mostly nurses and technicians) because the jobs pay better. They have job fairs in BC trying to recruit Canadian nurses to the US.

Meanwhile we have Americans coming north of the border to buy their prescription meds at a fraction of the cost that they would pay back home.

No, the systems aren't prefect. I'm not bashing you guys either, just the scare mongering comparing what Obama wants to do to our system isn't fair. With the good comes the bad whichever way you decide to go.

My crowd? My mom, my dad, their friends, our coworkers, etc. Please don't tell me you don't know any old people. Besides, I'm no spring chicken myself as I am fast approaching 40.
 
I'm not talking about the Canadian system - I'm talking about every single healthcare system besides the U.S.'

We're better than all of them in cancer prevention and treatment. The reason is because we do massive screening.

The system itself might be good for prevention, but the USA is near the top for actual cancer rates, probably due to lifestyle choices and such.

France, Japan and Cuba have the best survival rates for certain cancers, and they manage to do this while spending less than half the amount of money per person.
 
I'm really enjoying reading these stories about people living under social health-care systems in other countries.

Anyone want some popcorn? Please, help yourselves.

Popcorn2.jpg
 
I'm not talking about the Canadian system - I'm talking about every single healthcare system besides the U.S.'

We're better than all of them in cancer prevention and treatment. The reason is because we do massive screening.

In other countries, they limit screening to control costs. Less screening = less detection = more cancer deaths.

Thankfully, Obama will be able to fix our horrendous health care system pretty soon, though. Thank God he was elected by the great people of America!

Wow, you're basing your entire premise on one set of diseases out of... how many maladies are there anyway?
And you can't compare cancer rates because environmental factors play a huge role.

We have a hybrid system here. Medicare for everyone, and you get a tax rebate if you have private health insurance.
Works fine. Wait times are actually quite low for anything major, other than things that require transplants or a lot of blood transfusion (we've got one of the lowest blood donation rates in the world due to amazingly tight restrictions on who can give)

Hannah can back me up on this, having moved here from a place without social medicine.
How many of the people bashing social medicine have ever actually lived in a country that has it? Because I've never heard a story of someone filing for bankruptcy here because they can't pay medical bills.
 
Wow, you're basing your entire premise on one set of diseases out of... how many maladies are there anyway?
And you can't compare cancer rates because environmental factors play a huge role.

Yeah, cancer's just one disease anyways. And I'm sure the U.S. healthcare system has nothing to do with the higher survival rates - it just MUST be those 'environmental factors'.

Heaven forbid socialized medicine not be God's gift to us, right???? The horror!

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Some people will defend shit even when its been exposed as shit. It's kinda sad, actually.
 
I've never heard a story of someone filing for bankruptcy here because they can't pay medical bills.
Because the costs are offloaded onto someone else.

The problem with positivists such as yourself, is that you guys are only capable of seeing what is obvious. Statements like "taxes allow government to pay for things" when in fact, taxes also prevent the taxed individual from buying something or choosing where to invest in the economy. That is the unseen consequence to numerous state initiatives.

A medical system may be more or less efficient, but the cost of the care is simply obfuscated in a single payer system. As Mises documented in Socialism [ame="http://www.amazon.com/SOCIALISM-Lib-Works-Ludwig-Mises/dp/0913966630"][1][/ame], the inability to determine market prices over the long run due to central planning, creates compound inefficiencies and eventually economic degradation. Until 1985, soft-marxist western intellectuals and economists (people with your progressive ideology) swore that the USSR would end up dominating the west economically. In 1991, the USSR ceased to exist due to a complete collapse of their phony socialist economy.

Just because people aren't going bankrupt, doesn't mean the bills aren't being paid. You and Hannah might like socialized care, but that is because your costs are being offloaded to someone else, or your choices are limited due to rationing and you accept that.

While your intentions may not be malicious, you are arguing that you have a right to something you cannot pay for by forcing someone else to pay for it, under the force of government arms.