To refund, or not refund?

Matt -

This is the hardest part about building a brand and probably the biggest question that is asked by 3/4 of the people on here!

Recently, I had a company charge back 6 months of a very large sum. Things were going great, customer service was great i.e. daily phone calls, then one day poof, 6 payments charged back.

This is getting less and less about ethics and more of a presidence that b2b consumers are setting, <insert excuse here>...."charge back."

Only thing I did recently was hire a really good person that knows the ins and outs of contracts (not a lawyer), merchants, and chargebacks. A small salary could save your company millions over the course of a few years, or more!

as for the refund - what is your refund policy? if you dont have one, get one and stick to it!
 


ZuzanaDesigns said:
Make sure you have a good terms and conditions written as well.
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That's the problem. A solid T&C doesn't mean shit if you rub someone the wrong way, and they decide to publicly trash you on an online forum that's ranked highly by Google (eg. WaFo). Doesn't matter who's in the right or wrong. Potential customers search, will see it, and it turns them off. That's what aggravates me. I have to refund him, even though he has absolutely no legitimate reason for one.

Such is life, I guess.

Anyway, I don't give a fuck. Summer is finally over, and you guys all seem like you're back at work, so all is well. July sales sucked, but all is well in the world now! :)
 
8 months? Fuck that. What's to stop them from taking the refund and then slamming you? Keep a reasonable return policy, 3-6 months. If the customer can't get shit taken care of in that time frame, sorry. I've had people pull this kind of crap in the past.
 
Kiopa_Matt said:
Alright, I'll give the guy a refund. It's not the money, but just the principle of the matter. Purchases 8 months ago, no communication for 4 months, then shows up out of the blue requesting a refund. So I'm assuming he's just hurting for cash, and trying to dig some up wherever he can.

What an ass. Really, who requests refunds after 8 months? I can't even remember what I bought 8 months ago, let alone remember it enough to request a refund for it.
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Completely understand.
Just think of it as a charitable donation.




Cheers.
Mark.
 
You know how many people will actually take the time to "take it public"? Maybe 1 in 20... and so what? Just like 0% of people actually have a lawyer when they say, "you'll be hearing from my lawyer". Right.

And if they do take the time to bitch about it on a forum, either ignore it or respond on the forum and show everyone how retarded they are. If you start giving out refunds at any point for any reason (like someone tries to blackmail you with a bad review), then you'll have all kinds of bottom feeders signing up for your service and pulling the same shit.

The customer is not always right. The customer is a piece of shit and needs to shut the fuck up.
 
The biggest mistake here was a 'partial' refund. Stick with a reasonable policy.

Personally, I like to go 90 days, and I'll also include that if I approve, I can refund if the person requests only within 90 more days.

So basically, I give them 3 months and potentially 6 months if the reason is appropriate.

After that, I simply give them the 'Sorry' pitch. If they threaten me, saying they'll bash me, etc. I DON'T tell them to 'fuck off' or cuss at them... I'll explain below.

If they take it to a forum, you need to keep it professional. Because you didn't swear at them and explained to them that you can't give a refund past your appointed time and for the right reasons (3 months to half a year is MORE than enough time, and people will respect that). Say you can understand their frustration, but explain that they had more than enough time. I also don't want them to have any evidence that I was an asshole to them.

That's all you can do. Don't let 1 person bring your world down.
 
Dont give him a cent at this point. Hes not going to undo what he did (if he even admits it) . Chalk it up to experience and move on. Put in the work and bury his neg comments and forget about it.
 
subigo said:
Tell them to eat a dick and "take it public". You people telling him he should give refunds after 8 months are all fucking idiots.
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Take his advice. He has done great with it. Just Google his company. I too hope to be that successful.

Best advice eva; treat your customers like shit publicly. Then wait and watch the cash flow in.


Edit: All those who talk about policy are missing the point. Policies, contracts and attorneys are fall backs. You need to AVOID getting to that point. A few bucks < maintaining a good reputation. Don't fuck with someone who has just threatened a rip off report/chargeback.
 
Depends on the product, service, etc. I like what GreenLeaves says about the reputation being more important than a few bucks.

From operating several lines of products, I can say there are some serious psychos out there though....definitely some times the customer is WRONG and out of line. Be smart, courteous, and don't put things in writing you may regret, and you'll do fine online.
 
greenleaves said:
Take his advice. He has done great with it. Just Google his company. I too hope to be that successful.

Best advice eva; treat your customers like shit publicly. Then wait and watch the cash flow in.
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I never saw a drop in sales when I would tell a client to fuck off for being an idiot. Threads like this actually increased my sales by quite a bit.

I'm not Wal-Mart. I'm not here to great you with a smile and give you a refund 8 months later because you need money for rent. In fact, I'd personally think twice about signing up for a company that lets their clients blackmail them.
 
subigo said:
I never saw a drop in sales when I would tell a client to fuck off for being an idiot. Threads like this actually increased my sales by quite a bit.

I'm not Wal-Mart. I'm not here to great you with a smile and give you a refund 8 months later because you need money for rent. In fact, I'd personally think twice about signing up for a company that lets their clients blackmail them.
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Well, since you have had SOOOO many sales, it is completely understandable that your experience constitutes a reasonable sample size to extract conclusions from. And obviously your company did very well; so I understand you maintaining your position on this topic.


But I hope you don't do business with any major 'corporate American' company that is in a competitive market (i.e. this doesn't include phone companies, paypal, google, etc... whom operate either as monopolies or oligopolies), because they virtually all allow 'blackmail' (as you define it)

In most corporate America situations, if it isn't a lot of money; no matter how egregious the customer is; he will get something to make him 'satisfied'. I feel it is a wise decision to run the risk of becoming as successful as Wallmart, TacoBell, McDonalds, Starbux, etc and having to deal with the 'bottom feeders'.

And they also never argue with a customer; much less insult him/her.

The big boys have a lot less to loose with one bad review. When you have 1 bad review among 1,000s/10,000s/100,000s... then that isn't as bad. But for a small company with few reviews/no reviews, one bad one can be a disaster.

This isn't the 'streets' where if you get ripped off everyone will come rip you off because they heard you were weak (and therefore you can't take 'no shorts n no losses'). This is business. Value your reputation. Take care of it. It will take care of you.

In the hosting space, I've had hostgator literally apologize for something that was 100% my fault. They understand reputation. Look at their sales. The two factors are connected IMHO.
 
greenleaves said:
This isn't the 'streets' where if you get ripped off everyone will come rip you off because they heard you were weak (and therefore you can't take 'no shorts n no losses'). This is business. Value your reputation. Take care of it. It will take care of you.
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Actually, it kind of is, especially in the hosting world. There are forums/IRC channels that are dedicated to finding companies who:

1. Don't do fraud checks.
2. Don't enforce any kind of terms.
3. Don't fight chargebacks.
4. Allow refunds at anytime / blackmail.

If you fall into one of those categories and end up on one of those sites/channels... good fucking luck.
 
subigo said:
Actually, it kind of is, especially in the hosting world. There are forums/IRC channels that are dedicated to finding companies who:

1. Don't do fraud checks.
2. Don't enforce any kind of terms.
3. Don't fight chargebacks.
4. Allow refunds at anytime / blackmail.

If you fall into one of those categories and end up on one of those sites/channels... good fucking luck.
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If I get hit with that, prices go up. Service doesn't go down.

I'm glad you showed that you are a 'tough business owner' who doesn't 'take shit' from no one.

Now all those 'ICQ fools' won't be thinking of messing with your motherfucking shit! You a real G my man! Keep it real. Obviously that has worked out amazing for you; your hosting company is one of the biggest.

While you 'keep it real', I'll ensure that not 1 good customer is mistreated... even if that means having to satisfy 99 shit customers.

In fact, my site openly advertises no questions asked refund. But then again, I believe in fraud control. And most of those ICQ guys are already listed at iovation and most other serious fraud prevention services.

P.S. I've been in the online gambling arena, where fraud is much more serious than a $15/year client. I know what getting hit by an international fraud group is like, and dealing with the PR. I have even publicly posted defending us against our decisions. I'm not saying lose $400,000k+ every time (I've dealt with fraud cases involving those numbers). I'm saying value your reputation more than a few bucks. Look at the big picture. Forget your ego. Do what is best for your BRAND long term. That is... if you are serious about business and don't treat it like a hobby.
 
Unfortunately, guys like that are always going to be more trouble than they are worth, and partial refunds seem to almost always cause the exact problem you described, you give them back money they aren't entitled to AND they are still pissed off.

I am super-liberal about our return policy, because its not worth fighting over, if someone isn't happy and its at all possible to refund them (Visa/MC have their limitations on how much later a CC can be refunded, typically 120 days) I just do it and move on, better to spend that same time and money getting more sales than fighting over past ones. You don't have to publicize the fact you'll refund beyond the stated terms though, because there will always be people who will take advantage of you unfairly, but I find it best to refund whenever possible if the customer makes even the slightest effort, a lot less trouble and risk of them filing Rip Off report and BBB complaints all day long, which the bored ones will do because they actually have that much free time (even though they couldn't be bothered to actually return the product within the time frame they were supposed to).
 
greenleaves said:
If I get hit with that, prices go up. Service doesn't go down.
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Cool. Now you can give refunds for larger prices. That solves everything.

greenleaves said:
I'm glad you showed that you are a 'tough business owner' who doesn't 'take shit' from no one.
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Me too. I never had a problem with fraud or landing on spam/warez/child porn list. But I know plenty of people who did and ended up broke because of it.

The fact is, my way of business works and it paid my bills for almost five years. And during that five years, and thousands of clients, you'll only find two or three negative reviews... every single time someone threatened a negative review (or lawyer) I told them to go for it. Talk is cheap.

More people should be a nazi when it comes to running their business. It makes life a lot easier when you control your business and not some bottom feeding douche.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgC7z_vR78U]Hilarious Seinfeld Clip (S7E06) - YouTube[/ame]
 
greenleaves said:
If I get hit with that, prices go up. Service doesn't go down.
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Yeah I'm not sure I get how that helps either. Seems like you're fucking the majority (your legitimate customer base) because of the actions of a few bad apples... and it's not even like the higher prices will stop them anyway.

And to add to the thread - is it really a necessary part of doing business to just bend over and take dick from shitheads like this? Srs question.

Everyone in here is acting like not abiding by the "customer is always right" motto is the worst crime you could ever commit in business - do you know this from experience or are you just parroting what you've heard from others? Srs question #2.
 
subigo said:
The customer is not always right. The customer is a piece of shit and needs to shut the fuck up.
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I think you took a wrong turn somewhere, the "How to Burn Your Business to the Ground" thread is around the corner

Chief Broham said:
The biggest mistake here was a 'partial' refund. Stick with a reasonable policy.
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I agree with this. It would have been better if you didn't refund him at all. Giving the partial refund probably raged him.
 
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