Torture Works - Now Shut The Fuck Up

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Rage9 said:
It's a typical "calming" piece. Lot's of people where pissed off and didn't approve of the waterboarding, then again it was the fucking government that just basically changed what was considered torture to cover their own asses.

Then the government decides that they aren't going to prosecute ANYONE in connection with waterboarding.

Now shortly there after a magical story surfaces that the waterboarding torture saved us from another inside (9/11 style) job!

You have to be a gullible mother fucking to take this as is, and not get angry.
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I don't think you should prosecute people who are trying to do their jobs to the best of their ability.

Intelligence agencies are trying very hard to work within the constraints that they are given and still provide useful data that can save lives and our way of life. That said, there should absolutely be oversight - strong oversight - but handicapping our side unnecessarily isn't a good idea. We need to keep our heads out of the sand and maintain a realistic viewpoint of what the threats are and how we can neutralise them while still being able to look at ourselves in the mirror every morning.

What makes me angry is that people would like to kill you, me and my neighbor down the street because of some political/philisophical/religious difference that could probably be hashed out with a few drinks at the local bar, or maybe a fistfight in an alley somewhere.
 


jdomaha said:
I don't think you should prosecute people who are trying to do their jobs to the best of their ability.

Intelligence agencies are trying very hard to work within the constraints that they are given and still provide useful data that can save lives and our way of life. That said, there should absolutely be oversight - strong oversight - but handicapping our side unnecessarily isn't a good idea. We need to keep our heads out of the sand and maintain a realistic viewpoint of what the threats are and how we can neutralise them while still being able to look at ourselves in the mirror every morning.
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It isn't just not prosecuting of those who carried it out, but there superiors who are ultimately responsible for the orders. Which is bullshit.

Some one some where had to give the order, and they sure as fuck aren't being held accountable.
 
jdomaha said:
Intelligence agencies are trying very hard to work within the constraints that they are given and still provide useful data that can save lives and our way of life. That said, there should absolutely be oversight - strong oversight - but handicapping our side unnecessarily isn't a good idea. We need to keep our heads out of the sand and maintain a realistic viewpoint of what the threats are and how we can neutralise them while still being able to look at ourselves in the mirror every morning.
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Since 9/11 they become anything but restrained. They can spy on you, they could secretly arrest you, and they have the OK to torture you. They do not exactly live inside of bounds these days, so to stick up for them is only adding to the problem.
 
Rage9 said:
It isn't just not prosecuting of those who carried it out, but there superiors who are ultimately responsible for the orders. Which is bullshit.

Some one some where had to give the order, and they sure as fuck aren't being held accountable.
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Someone has to make the tough decisions to protect the country. It isn't you, it isn't me. It's easy to be an armchair quarterback and get mad when you're not the one who makes the decisions and has to live with the consequences.

Do we sacrifice La Palma, California to a terrorist attack, or do we refuse to stoop to the terrorists' level and refuse to torture someone we know has the information we need to stop the attack?

It's a tough call and one that goes straight to the heart of who you are and what you hold to be important.
 
Did we really have to torture? I mean these guys want to kill us so they can get some pussy in paradise right? The CIA should have just given KSM a haircut, a back/chest wax, a ferrari, and dropped him off in Cancun during spring break and tell him to pose as a wealthy Mexican drug lord.
 
Rage9 said:
Since 9/11 they become anything but restrained. They can spy on you, they could secretly arrest you, and they have the OK to torture you. They do not exactly live inside of bounds these days, so to stick up for them is only adding to the problem.
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Dude, you're making the mistake of thinking of these guys like the movies portray them.

They aren't out to get you. A lot of them are just normal folks doing abnormal jobs.

I do understand that there needs to be strong oversight of their activities, and that abuses of power need to be squashed.
 
What we do to terrorist is NOTHING compared to the things terrorist do to people they capture.

Those mother fuckers will chainsaw your balls off, stick fucking needles in your eye, rape you, burn you, and then kill every friend and family member 1 by 1 until you tell them what they want.... and if you don't tell them what you want, they'll chop your fucking head off.

Now that is fucking torture. What we do is pussy shit.
 
At the risk of sounding like a dummy, do we actually have hard evidence that torture works? We have the CIA's account. Believing them hasn't always worked out well.

I read a brief account of how the Chinese were so successful in extracting information from U.S. POWs during the Korean War ("Influence" by Robert Cialdini, 1993 ed., pp. 70-?). They didn't use torture. They found psychological influence through "other means" was far more successful.

Having said that, I'm not arguing for or against torture. I just wasn't sure whether most of you believed the CIA's account (nevele notwithstanding).

Plus, imagine what intel the CIA could have extracted had they focused on KSM's chest hair.
 
Am I the only one that believes the Constitution and due process are designed to protect innocent citizens of the U.S. and in no way can be applied to foreign enemies of war?

Just sayin'
 
psst... don't tell cheney

Old Goat said:
If Obama had ever been in the service, he would understand that when a document has "Top Secret" written on it, if the info gets out, there WILL BE damage to our national security. He went against the advice of his own CIA appointee and several past CIA heads to release this info. These techniques DID work. They saved many American lives.

I continue to be saddened by our beloved new president's actions.
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jdomaha said:
Dude, you're making the mistake of thinking of these guys like the movies portray them.

They aren't out to get you. A lot of them are just normal folks doing abnormal jobs.

I do understand that there needs to be strong oversight of their activities, and that abuses of power need to be squashed.
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I'm not making a mistake of anything. Sure they are just everyday people, but they take (and follow) orders. One of the more recent storys (off the top of my head) was when it came out that they where recording phone calls of all different kinds of people, whether they where thought to be terrorists or persons of interest.

Normal people, doing devious things. But hey, they have to earn a paycheck too huh?
 
Man, i want so bad to explain how this works, but i will just waist my time, so fuck it, it's just another thread.

OK, edit:
Americans will never understand how this things are working. Why would they when in US, homeless dogs have more rights than homeless people.
 
Rage9 said:
I'm not making a mistake of anything. Sure they are just everyday people, but they take (and follow) orders. One of the more recent storys (off the top of my head) was when it came out that they where recording phone calls of all different kinds of people, whether they where thought to be terrorists or persons of interest.

Normal people, doing devious things. But hey, they have to earn a paycheck too huh?
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And those people, when they're found out, should serve prison time if what they were doing wasn't authorized for a legitimate reason.

Two FBI agents were recently arrested for using equipment for taping the changing rooms of a beauty pageant of some kind. They'll go to prison for it, which is just.

We entrust these people with a lot of power, it's right that we should have high expectations of them. For the most part they deliver.
 
I knew this thread would kind of erupt, therefore I joked around in my first posts.

I kind of think of WF as a "bar" atmosphere where I go to break up my day. Maybe talk a little shop, maybe tell a dirty joke or two, maybe harass a few idiots.

But more or less, I like to stick to the same rules that I'd stick to in a bar:

1) Don't argue about politics.
2) Don't argue about religion.
3) Don't let your drunk buddy leave with a fat chick.

Hence my joking around about a matter that's anything but laughable.

Being a vet (with a clearance that only recently expired; 7 year limit) I can certainly see both sides of the issue. It's not an easy one to decide and political bickering on both sides of the aisle (by politics, not by you guys) only makes it worse.

Add to that the much-needed, yet very subject-to-abuse secrecy of the CIA and other agencies, it's nothing short of a major clusterfuck that's never going to be fully resolved. For what it's worth, I can only say trust me on that.

Thank God I never saw conflict - at least in the battlefield sense of the term - even though I actively applied to my chain of command to be re-assigned to it after 9/11. It's because I did have a clearance that I wasn't re-assigned.

And no, I don't know any really cool State secrets. My clearance was limited to classified details regarding the mechanical and nuclear systems on submarines, not Jack Bower shit. ;)

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I respect just about everyone that posted in this thread and a lot of people on this forum so I'd hate for a political discussion to hinder the possibility of a possible future partnership or even just friendship. It's just not worth it.

Carry on.
 
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