US GOV'T BAILOUT of Banks

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A little uneasy at this bale out deal thing
it's just robbing peter to pay paul.
The amount of tax payers money that is being proposed did not just appear from nowhere. It's not money that has been lying idle somewhere, waiting for this one moment. it is money that should be going to other things egg roads, security, health etc

Yes you can bail out the banking institutions but at what cost.
that's what I,m worried about!
 


guerilla said:
...I worked in stores. We took money from anyone with money. Hoes, crack heads, cops, blacks, whites, hispanics, male, female, old, young etc. We weren't the MFing Salvation Army. We were there to make a profit.
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Then you're missing the point. You took money from them. You didn't take Newports. You didn't take a goat. You took money, because (a) it's legal tender, so you were required by law to accept it (b) you knew that you could then take it to a different store and use it to buy things because it was legal tender, and they were required to accept it as well.

And as far as the world being the "sufficiently large system" that proves otherwise, you're forgetting that all of the currencies are also legal tender, so your point is lost.

Again, show a sufficiently large economic system being used in which a lack of legal tender exists.
 
niche said:
The amount of tax payers money that is being proposed did not just appear from nowhere. It's not money that has been lying idle somewhere, waiting for this one moment. it is money that should be going to other things egg roads, security, health etc
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They're not going to take money away from anything else. They won't rebalance the budget. They'll, as they just did, request the limit on the total federal deficit be increased, and print the money. Literally they'll just hand out money that doesn't actually exist, increasing the supply of money in circulation, lowering the value of all the money already out there. Rather than pay for it in taxes, when the government prints money like this, we all pay for it in reduced spending power.

It's a short term solution for sure. Eventually there must be a deep recession to correct the bubble.
 
EDIT, apparently it is martial law under Robert's Rules of Order. It is not a national emergency. It is martial law which means everyone has to attend and vote, or they can be arrested.

Of course, they have to vote, and many of them have not seen the bill.

Scary stuff.
 
the only solution to this problem is to not pay taxes. if enough people don't pay for this shit, wtf are they gonna do?

keep bendin' over america.
 
guerilla said:
There is another option. Instead of a fixed rate of return, you make an investment and profit from it. You buy into a company, and you receive dividends on your capital investment. If the company does well, you do well. If the company does poorly, you don't get a return.

That is how it was done in the day.

The only reason we don't do it that way anymore and conform to the interest model instead, is that the banks issue all of the credit in the economy. They are allowed to "print" money out of thin air, and no private capital holder can compete with the superpower of legal counterfeit.
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That's a wonderful dream ... but you're still creating wealth out of nothing. Investing is not a physical product and it is not labor capital (like tilling a field). You will still have a buildup of speculative wealth which eventually surpasses real wealth and creates the need for a crash (or reset of the system).

There ARE things that make the problem worse, like FRB and debt currency, but you can take away all those things, and there's still the fundamental problem of usury.

Even a barter society won't get rid of usury. If I'm trading 2 chickens for a bushel of hay, but you don't have hay right now ... we might cut a deal that says I'll give you the 2 chickens NOW for a 1.5 bushels of hay 6 months from now. That's usury. That's creating wealth from nothing tangible. Plus, no trade is equal for both sides. And if you make more trades that favor you than the next guy, then again, you're creating wealth from nothing.

The reality is this. Economies must expand and contract. If the global economy tanks it will suck. But it woulda sucked less if they let it fail 20 years ago. And it's gonna suck more if they keep it alive for another 20 years.

You can talk all you want about making a fairer system, but you can never change the fundamental physics of the system to get rid of speculative wealth. You can only navigate the ups and downs skillfully.

And if you don't, someone else will.
 
snavr said:
That's a wonderful dream ... but you're still creating wealth out of nothing.
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Uhm... NO.

snavr said:
Investing is not a physical product and it is not labor capital (like tilling a field).
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Uhm... YEAH! (Have you ever heard of capital goods?)

snavr said:
You will still have a buildup of speculative wealth which eventually surpasses real wealth and creates the need for a crash (or reset of the system).
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Uhm.... NO! Why would you say this? Read on...

snavr said:
Even a barter society won't get rid of usury. If I'm trading 2 chickens for a bushel of hay, but you don't have hay right now ... we might cut a deal that says I'll give you the 2 chickens NOW for a 1.5 bushels of hay 6 months from now.
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That's still a straight swap. The deal concludes when you get your 1.5 bushels of hay. The 0.5 bushel of hay does not begin to compound over time. It's basically the futures game.

snavr said:
That's creating wealth from nothing tangible.
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Uhm... I use the 2 chickens now, to get to where I can provide 1.5 bushels of hay later. The tangible good is the 2 chickens, and the ability to provide 50% more hay later, is because I was given time to make payment (acquire or grow the goods). The hay will be created, by my hands, in my field. It's just deferred settlement. This is really basic stuff dude.

snavr said:
Plus, no trade is equal for both sides.
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I believe in Mises' model for human economic action. A trade occurs when both sides feel they are better off with the exchange of goods. Now the price may not seem fair to you, but if both sides trade less than what they think they are getting, it is a fair trade. The market sets prices this way (where supply intersects with demand).

snavr said:
And if you make more trades that favor you than the next guy, then again, you're creating wealth from nothing.
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This is obscene.

snavr said:
The reality is this. Economies must expand and contract. If the global economy tanks it will suck. But it woulda sucked less if they let it fail 20 years ago. And it's gonna suck more if they keep it alive for another 20 years.
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This we can somewhat agree upon.

snavr said:
You can talk all you want about making a fairer system, but you can never change the fundamental physics of the system to get rid of speculative wealth. You can only navigate the ups and downs skillfully.
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Well, you're presuming that speculative wealth is a bad thing. On the contrary, people who successfully guess supply and demand changes in advance (speculators) are the ones who keep big crashes and big booms from happening, as the market adjusts gradually before the turbulence.

You've got some ideas, but then some really wrong ones. Reading what you wrote, you sound much more like an interventionist than a free marketer.
 
Hilarious thread.

What's with these armchair warriors that haven't even taken Economics 101 trying to duke this one out?

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Unarmed Gunman said:
Then you're missing the point. You took money from them. You didn't take Newports. You didn't take a goat. You took money, because (a) it's legal tender, so you were required by law to accept it (b) you knew that you could then take it to a different store and use it to buy things because it was legal tender, and they were required to accept it as well.
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Dude, if someone brought in gold, silver or diamonds, we would have done business too. Even if it was illegal, even if it wasn't legal tender.

That's the difference between a fiat paper money (which is fiat due to legal tender laws) and real money (that which cannot be counterfeited, and are rare).

Arguments for legal tender are usually pretty nutty. For example, the government could say that paper dipped in bird shit is legal tender. We'd all be dealing with shit dolllars. Or they could say that paper printed with the blood of asian virgins was legal tender. Or they could say that marbles are legal tender. Or cars are legal tender. It's completely arbitrary. In the absence of the law (and how many of us follow the law 100%, answer = none) the good is only worth what someone is willing to trade for it. That's why there is never hyperinflationary or hyperdeflationary gold. But there is hyperinflationary and hyperdeflationary paper.

Unarmed Gunman said:
And as far as the world being the "sufficiently large system" that proves otherwise, you're forgetting that all of the currencies are also legal tender, so your point is lost.
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No, my example is valid. Euros are not legal tender in America. But Europeans can exchange them and visit America, and likewise. They do trade with America, and likewise. Same with any other currency.

Credit cards actually make this even easier, as you can convert and pay in the currency of choice on demand at the latest rates. Believe me, if Singapore made gold their legal tender, then you could be able to go to Singapore with zero gold, and still participate in their economy with US dollars.

Unarmed Gunman said:
Again, show a sufficiently large economic system being used in which a lack of legal tender exists.
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Done. A lot of very smart people have been talking about this for quite some time. There is a lot of literature on it. It's not quackery. The world is already trending towards nation neutral, legal tender neutral money. Dropping legal tender laws would speed it up tremendously.
 
Our notes say, for example, "I promise to pay the bearer on demand the sum of Ten Pounds"...

I've always wondered how they would pay that if I demanded it, when these notes (a glorified IOU) are the only currency.
 
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LazyHippy said:
I've always wondered how they would pay that if I demanded it, when theses notes (a glorified IOU) are the only currency.
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US dollars used to say something like that too, but the text was removed when the gold backing to the dollar was removed. And that's the root of what is happening around the world today.
 
Dan Grossman said:
Buy gold and make sure your passport is up to date.
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Sad but true. Also, if you're even going to consider that path, make sure you know about the exit conditions. There is regulation to prevent you from fleeing the US with your wealth. It's fairly recent, so you'll want to be up on that.

What people aren't getting is that the stock market crash isn't the problem. It's the dollar devaluation. When the dollar takes body blows, prices are going to soar, choking off consumption and driving up interest rates. And that will be a chokehold on the economy. During the Depression, the market deflated but the dollar stayed constant because it was linked to gold.

The FED tried to pump liquidity (credit) into the system, but the banks wouldn't take it, and the people didn't want loans they knew they couldn't pay back in a bad economy.

You're seeing the same thing today. The FED just injected $400 billion (without a bailout bill) into the economy, and it did nothing. No stimulus shock. Meanwhile, each injecting is pushing up prices as the dollar weakens.

Cover your asses. If you're over-extended, stop making excuses. Get your house in order.
 
The truth comes out. All of the people who blindly believed the bailout was some great thing, are being exposed as a little too trusting of government.

YouTube - **FLASH** The REAL REASON For The Bailout (Hint: FOREIGNERS)

It's what people have been warning about. Foreign creditors are calling America's note. The bailout is not for domestic banks or domestic mortgages, it is to bail out the foreign banks and governments.

(D) Brad Sherman blew the whistle on Kudlow and Company, and tonight on Lou Dobbs, it was revealed that Wall Street is hiring people to call Congress and lobby for the bailout (pretend to be voters).

If you haven't contacted your rep yet, why not?
 
guerilla said:
The truth comes out. All of the people who blindly believed the bailout was some great thing, are being exposed as a little too trusting of government.

YouTube - **FLASH** The REAL REASON For The Bailout (Hint: FOREIGNERS)

It's what people have been warning about. Foreign creditors are calling America's note. The bailout is not for domestic banks or domestic mortgages, it is to bail out the foreign banks and governments.

(D) Brad Sherman blew the whistle on Kudlow and Company, and tonight on Lou Dobbs, it was revealed that Wall Street is hiring people to call Congress and lobby for the bailout (pretend to be voters).

If you haven't contacted your rep yet, why not?
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Makes sense, but feels a lot like the sort of conspiracy theory the sheeple have been conditioned to ignore or ridicule.
 
guerilla said:
Sad but true. Also, if you're even going to consider that path, make sure you know about the exit conditions. There is regulation to prevent you from fleeing the US with your wealth. It's fairly recent, so you'll want to be up on that.
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Guerrila, could you point me in the right direction to learn more about those regulations? Thanks.
 
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