Votes dem, moves money offshore. Does no evil.

Your definition of value is very different to mine it seems. To put forward a fairly extreme example, if someone is buying heroin from a drug dealer I would personally say the person receiving the heroin does not "add value" to the country.
"The country" is an abstraction. It's not a "thing". It's an idea.

To make this claim, you're saying that value is objective. That is, you're saying that two actors making an exchange cannot determine value for themselves.

Ultimately, you're just imposing your own moral values on what people choose to do with their own lives.

When I think of what I want an active economy to do, I dont think "I want a bigger GDP". I don't even think "I want a bigger GDP per human capita".
That's good, because GDP is also not a thing. It is another abstraction, another idea.

Over the last 50 years the real wage for the average worker has not increased at all. 25 years ago the top 1% of the USA controlled 12% of the income and 33% of the wealth. Now they control almost a quarter of the income and 40% of the wealth. I can assure you that they haven't been working THAT much harder than those at the bottom of the pile.
No, they have built a system to rip people off. It's called government.

I don't support it.

I don't mind the idea of socialism, communism, fascism or any ism. They are after all just names. I think that almost every line of thought has some valid points and that no method is perfect.
This is relativism. If no method is perfect, neither is your method of saying no method is perfect.

I'd be careful with this line of thinking. Objective reality exists independent of the observer.

If you are suggesting that every human action (including affection) is due to selfishness, I disagree.
You're welcome to disagree, but what I have said it relatively uncontroversial in the social sciences. Man acts for his own ends. His ends may be inclusive of others, but they are still his ends. A man who doesn't act in his own interest, is unable to act rationally within his own life.

I also think that government should not be the solution but I DO think it should be a fall-back option.
It's not an option. It's violence and monopoly. It's a bit dissonant to say that you don't think it should be a solution, but you keep it as a fall back option.

You think I'm living in my little Utopian paradise of crowd-following socialists
No, I think you think like most people, that is, you haven't spent a lot of time thinking. No insult intended, but nothing you have posted has any basis in reason or evidence. They are ad hoc conclusions presumably based on emotional responses.

There is a distinction between reason and emotion.

I think you're wanting to live in an unrealistic, nearing absurd vision of your own Utopian paradise.
I don't think you know me, let alone understand what I think, at all.

There was an interesting point I heard Joseph Stiglitz say not too long ago. He pointed out that the closest a modern country has ever got to the free-market system was Industrial Great Britain. Very little tax, very few government regulations (e.g. health, environmental etc), a booming worldwide market and an extremely small government. And hey, Britain did great. Its economy grew massively. Everyone was having a great time ... oh wait, no. It was the first drop in life expectancy in the UK for a very long time. Many miners were expecting to be dead by their mid 20's. It was a period of disgusting squalor, poverty, sickness and greed. Economic growth did not lead to increased welfare. Hell if you're looking for a low tax rate, try medieval Britain. I hear it was only about 1%.
Correlation is not causation. Hoppe excorciates this particular view of history, because it takes facts, and builds a false narrative that ignores causality.

It's pretty common among left thinkers. Don't get me wrong, right thinkers are barely any better.

Taxes are theft. They have absolutely nothing to do with life expectancy, except lowering it by reducing aggregate prosperity. If you like a powerful, confiscating government, go live in North Korea and let me know how you enjoy it. As a fall back option of course...
 


The A priori of Argumention - YouTube
While I like this a lot, and I have challenged it directly with Kinsella, this sort of thinking isn't easy for a layman to grasp. Most people never learn, or come to expect, congruent thinking of themselves or others.

Some would argue that the ability for moral abstraction is what seperates us from animals.
It's actually reason which separates us from animals. But you're fairly close because morals or rather, ethics, are not possible without reason.

However, history certainly doesn't provide much evidence for God given rights.
There is a school that believes in natural rights. Axiomatic rights. That's what Charles posted above in the video.

I don't think I agree 100%, but I like the seriousness of the discussion.

But is it still worth pursuing those ideals or should we just degenerate into fragmented right by might, gun anarchy?
That's what we have now. You don't have free speech at the Democratic or Republican conventions. Your government violates the 4th amendment to spy on you.

You're felt up at airports. You're taxed (expropriated from) under threat of violence.

You can't drink or smoke what you want, when you want.

This is civilization?

PS, you didn't answer my post about defense.
 
It's actually reason which separates us from animals. But you're fairly close because morals or rather, ethics, are not possible without reason.

Yes ok, I'll buy that.

There is a school that believes in natural rights. Axiomatic rights. That's what Charles posted above in the video.

TL:DW, but rights to me are an abstraction, but that doesn't mean the discussion or pursuit of abstractions are worthless. I'm in the boat that believes that technology will 'solve' (in the mathematical sense) the issue of politics. As in, once the lid is off, whole power structures will become instantly obsolete. Like each individual having a nuke in his or hers pocket. Now that woud change how we view each other wouldn't it?


That's what we have now. You don't have free speech at the Democratic or Republican conventions. Your government violates the 4th amendment to spy on you.

You're felt up at airports. You're taxed (expropriated from) under threat of violence.

You can't drink or smoke what you want, when you want.

This is civilization?

PS, you didn't answer my post about defense.

Yes, this is correct too. I agree the current structure is essentially nothing else than joining a gang for protection. Blood in, blood out. Can't easily opt out either.

So that also answers the defense question. If you're not willing and able to fight for your property, then you're essentially unfree. I've mentioned earlier, how I have been interested in the couple hundred years when Iceland was a defacto anarchist nation, with weapon yielding citizens and arbritation as law and free-market voting rights. That anarchistic freedom was only defeated by pure threath of overwhelming violence.

So to sum up: Rights only exist because of your willingness to defend them, but they can still serve a practical purpose as an ethical abstraction for a voluntary community.
 
GKTJf.jpg
 
I understand the arguments in this thread. One thing I will never understand, however - why guerilla wastes his time arguing on wickedfire.
 
The class distinction isn't between small and big.

It's between crony capitalists and everyone else (you guys seriously need to read Das Kapital closely). Google, by and large, doesn't use the power of the state very much, relative to say Apple, to maintain their profits.

This.

Maybe Google supported Obama because he was less of a crony capitalist than Romney. You only have to look at how each campaign handled it's data mining/tech aspect.

In 2008, the Obama data mining operation was so ground-breaking that people got ideas from it that were later used by Target and others in business. So everyone wanted to help work on the 2012 campaign because a) chance to get in on some ground-breaking stuff and b) chance to network with others from the industry also working on teh campaign.

What does Obama do? On the advice of Eric Schmidt, he hires people on merit, regardless of whether they vote Dem or not - so you weren't excluded from participating in a once-in-four-years tech jamboree just because you were a Republican.

What does Romney do? Listens to some slick sales pitch from a crony, who then takes the contract, keeps most of the money, uses the rest to outsource the apps to Asia, and then they ended up with a product that didn't work because it was done on the cheap and had not been beta-tested.

It's not surprising Obama won - meritocratic systems always deliver better than crony systems.

I'm amazed any small time entrepreneur voted for Romney. None of us are his cronies and that's a fact. Which means in a system he was in charge of, you would always be excluded from the opportunities, regardless of whether you voted for him or not.
 
Yes but I don't see it as theft. I see it that without the government, almost all of the money we have "earned" would not be there. I don't agree with your John Stuart Mill -esque idea that everything we "earn" should belong to the person and not the government.
To make this claim, you're saying that value is objective. That is, you're saying that two actors making an exchange cannot determine value for themselves.

I absolutely think that value may be subjective to the person at the time but to realistically measure (inaccurately of course) we have to treat it objectively. As I'm sure you know, in Economics there are endless amounts of ways to determine value. I would argue that human welfare is probably the most important factor and therefore goods classed as merit goods that usually have great benefits are, in my eyes, more valuable. Of course it's next to impossible to attach price to value because of the endless ways to do it. Why is it that many health goods are a low price when buying crack is so damn expensive these days? I personally think that if people bought whatever they thought was the highest value to them subjectively, people would be far worse off. Even greater impulse buying, drug abuse, lack of health goods etc.

If you think that human beings are rational animals then well ... hopefully you realise we aren't.

Over the last 50 years the real wage for the average worker has not increased at all. 25 years ago the top 1% of the USA controlled 12% of the income and 33% of the wealth. Now they control almost a quarter of the income and 40% of the wealth. I can assure you that they haven't been working THAT much harder than those at the bottom of the pile.
No, they have built a system to rip people off. It's called government.

I don't support it.
Correct me if I'm wrong as I don't know US history well at all, but did Reagan not cut income tax for the rich in half in the 80's or something? I'm not sure you can put a 50 year wage freeze for the poor directly on the government. It did end up in the coffers of those with the most money.

I don't mind the idea of socialism, communism, fascism or any ism. They are after all just names. I think that almost every line of thought has some valid points and that no method is perfect.
This is relativism. If no method is perfect, neither is your method of saying no method is perfect.

I'd be careful with this line of thinking. Objective reality exists independent of the observer.

Nothing humans do is completely perfect, that is the nature of us. We are estimators. It would be correct to say nothing we do is perfect. By me saying that "no method is perfect" I am not proposing a method I am proposing a statement that points out that everything that humans do, by our very nature, is not perfect. It has nothing to do with method. You point is quite a childish view.

There is a difference between saying "The hubble constant is 75" and "Many of the estimates of the hubble constant are interesting but we can not be sure which one is correct". We CANNOT because it is impossible. Objectivity when it comes to certain axiums is perfectly acceptable (Hopefully you go around in life thinking that 1=1. If not, God help you).

If you are suggesting that every human action (including affection) is due to selfishness, I disagree.
You're welcome to disagree, but what I have said it relatively uncontroversial in the social sciences. Man acts for his own ends. His ends may be inclusive of others, but they are still his ends. A man who doesn't act in his own interest, is unable to act rationally within his own life.

Oh so you DO think human beings are rational. Oh dear. For someone who preaches his understanding of economics, you missed an important bit.

I also think that government should not be the solution but I DO think it should be a fall-back option.
It's not an option. It's violence and monopoly. It's a bit dissonant to say that you don't think it should be a solution, but you keep it as a fall back option.

If no method is perfect then it's better to have back-up methods which work (subjectively in the eyes of the general population) better than the other options.

You think I'm living in my little Utopian paradise of crowd-following socialists.
No, I think you think like most people, that is, you haven't spent a lot of time thinking. No insult intended, but nothing you have posted has any basis in reason or evidence. They are ad hoc conclusions presumably based on emotional responses.

There is a distinction between reason and emotion.

There is a difference between reason and emotion? Humans are emotional creatures. And reason is subjective (Eat your own comments!). I would argue that I have made several points of reason and even included some data. Your technique seems to have been commenting on my points mainly telling me my lack of economic knowledge and pointing out the faults with my theories while missing out many of your own. I don't confess to be a man with any answers, I do know that I can think of some problems though.


I think you're wanting to live in an unrealistic, nearing absurd vision of your own Utopian paradise.

I don't think you know me, let alone understand what I think, at all.

I'm know I don't. My point was about subjectivity. We are not going to agree, that was my point. We are both as irritated by how "wrong" the other one of us is when in reality, it's far more likely that neither my attempt at a solution or yours would be the "best" (objectively) for the world population. Like I said, I don't think my answers are right but like everyone else, I can still see problems.

There was an interesting point I heard Joseph Stiglitz say not too long ago. He pointed out that the closest a modern country has ever got to the free-market system was Industrial Great Britain. Very little tax, very few government regulations (e.g. health, environmental etc), a booming worldwide market and an extremely small government. And hey, Britain did great. Its economy grew massively. Everyone was having a great time ... oh wait, no. It was the first drop in life expectancy in the UK for a very long time. Many miners were expecting to be dead by their mid 20's. It was a period of disgusting squalor, poverty, sickness and greed. Economic growth did not lead to increased welfare. Hell if you're looking for a low tax rate, try medieval Britain. I hear it was only about 1%.
Correlation is not causation. Hoppe excorciates this particular view of history, because it takes facts, and builds a false narrative that ignores causality.

It's pretty common among left thinkers. Don't get me wrong, right thinkers are barely any better.

Taxes are theft. They have absolutely nothing to do with life expectancy, except lowering it by reducing aggregate prosperity. If you like a powerful, confiscating government, go live in North Korea and let me know how you enjoy it. As a fall back option of course...

Ignore all data, ignore economics. That's all the above says to me. Correlation is not causation but it IS useful. Correlation can help you lead to causation. So you're saying that we should trust your anarcho-capitalist like views and just dive the country straight in without any view of the history? I would rather use empirical evidence even if it is just weak correlation than none at all.

I don't think taxes lower life expectancy. I think that many of the things that the government gives out (Ok USA citizens get a crappy deal and pay high tax for diddly squat. It isnt the same everywhere) help the people tremendously. Have a look at the history of the National Health Service in the UK and the amazing effects on society it had here when it was started.

I don't see taxes as theft. The government provides public goods and education for me, I provide a way to make sure that others can get them too. You may think that everything privatised would work (which it may near you since I imagine you live in an area with much more population than me) but I guarantee it would not work over here.

I am far too drunk to be writing this. Sorry if there are any spelling errors or anything repeated about 100 times.
 
Now that woud change how we view each other wouldn't it?
I don't see men as being inherently violent towards one another. Pre-meditated violence can usually be traced to a causal event.

If you're not willing and able to fight for your property, then you're essentially unfree. I've mentioned earlier, how I have been interested in the couple hundred years when Iceland was a defacto anarchist nation, with weapon yielding citizens and arbritation as law and free-market voting rights. That anarchistic freedom was only defeated by pure threath of overwhelming violence.
I was coming at this more, from the perspective of the USG and defense.

Yes, socialists have bad welfare and economic ideas. But right wing fascists have horrible ideas about nationalism and warfare.

To be frank, I was wondering if you were a hypocrite or not, because welfare is also a socialist agenda.

So to sum up: Rights only exist because of your willingness to defend them, but they can still serve a practical purpose as an ethical abstraction for a voluntary community.
All you need is one universal ethic. Non-aggression. All negative rights are thereby protected even if they aren't explicit.

I love that you get the idea of an ethical abstraction. Very cool.
 
As I'm sure you know, in Economics there are endless amounts of ways to determine value.
There is only one I am aware of.

If you think that human beings are rational animals then well ... hopefully you realise we aren't.
We are, however you probably have a bad definition of rational/irrational.

Correct me if I'm wrong as I don't know US history well at all, but did Reagan not cut income tax for the rich in half in the 80's or something? I'm not sure you can put a 50 year wage freeze for the poor directly on the government. It did end up in the coffers of those with the most money.
You should learn how central banking, fractional reserve and fiat money works. Your simple model of people aren't getting richer because they paid less taxes is on its face, poor.

You point is quite a childish view.
It was a point of logic.

There is a difference between saying "The hubble constant is 75" and "Many of the estimates of the hubble constant are interesting but we can not be sure which one is correct". We CANNOT because it is impossible. Objectivity when it comes to certain axiums is perfectly acceptable (Hopefully you go around in life thinking that 1=1. If not, God help you).
I'll assume this was drunk rambling.

Oh so you DO think human beings are rational. Oh dear. For someone who preaches his understanding of economics, you missed an important bit.
And which bit would that be?

There is a difference between reason and emotion?
Apparently.

I don't confess to be a man with any answers
Maybe you should spend some time working on answers.

We are both as irritated by how "wrong" the other one of us is
You're not irritating me. Wasting my time? Sure. But it's not irritating me yet.

Ignore all data, ignore economics. That's all the above says to me. Correlation is not causation but it IS useful. Correlation can help you lead to causation.
The error you make, is best described like this.

You see 19th century poor, 20th century rich, you see 19th century Monarchy, 20th century Democracy, and conclude that Democracy makes people rich.

It's correlation, it's not proof of causation.

Another example. A blonde woman gets hit a by a bus. You believe that buses either only hit blondes, or blondes always get hit by buses.

Correlation != Causation.

So you're saying that we should trust your anarcho-capitalist like views and just dive the country straight in without any view of the history?
Why trust me? Use reason.

There is no country. It is an abstraction.

I would rather use empirical evidence even if it is just weak correlation than none at all.
What is the empirical evidence?

Have a look at the history of the National Health Service in the UK and the amazing effects on society it had here when it was started.
lol

I don't see taxes as theft. The government provides public goods and education for me, I provide a way to make sure that others can get them too.
You could do that without taxes. You don't need taxes to do that.

You may think that everything privatised would work (which it may near you since I imagine you live in an area with much more population than me) but I guarantee it would not work over here.
I live in a village of 1500 people.

Pretty much everything that touches everyday life is private.

I am far too drunk to be writing this. Sorry if there are any spelling errors or anything repeated about 100 times.
Just shitty arguments but I did my best to address them anyway.