What's Communism?

[Moxie]

It's autistic how you

Hmm, well, since you brought it up.

Also, the argument to age is a logical fallacy. A definition being old doesn't indicate any sort of quality.

No shit, but if my mother wants to call the Beatles "heavy" music, I will understand where she is coming from. Maybe I will explain to her what I consider to be "heavy" music, but I'm not gonna spaz out, call her names, and challenge her to a serious debate about beats per minute and guitar tonality.

Have you ever uttered the phrase "I see where you're coming from" or thought that in your brain? Most of us do it regularly, even when we disagree.

Also, I am obnoxious with you because I don't like you. I think you're either incredibly stupid or a truly irritating troll. Either way, you're not someone I would like to get to know better.

You more than anyone here gets particular in relation to word definitions and you were again doing it in response to UG and Redshield. If you had said something like "that's not true anarchy as I would define it", then I wouldn't have responded. Instead you once again played the part of obnoxious internet guy.

I then responded in a much lighter way, kept things in relation to the topic at hand, and it's not like I pulled out some super controversial unheard of definition. So like in the past, I gave you a light dose of your own medicine. If that's truly annoying to you, then what does that say?

With most of the "aggressive" posters on here, it's a sign that they don't take this place too seriously (especially not enough to make judgements about who they truly like or not) and that they welcome equal "aggression" in return. With you, something else is going on, apparently.

You can go post on warriorforum and get your ass kissed and treated much more respectfully, that doesn't mean that you wouldn't get along better in real life with hellblazer or myself.

forgettable information without context or understanding

What's confusing? Maybe moving pictures are more to your liking?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOG9SEJiViI]Great Ape Art and Self Expression - YouTube[/ame]

 

[jimmyn]

No shit, but if my mother wants to call the Beatles "heavy" music, I will understand where she is coming from. Maybe I will explain to her what I consider to be "heavy" music, but I'm not gonna spaz out, call her names, and challenge her to a serious debate about beats per minute and guitar tonality.

Helter Skelter is heavy.

_____________________________________

What makes Obama a Communist?

 

[Suspect Device]

 

[Moxie]

Helter Skelter is heavy.

Whoa, nothing can be explained. A definition for "helter skelter" is "anarchy", some think John Lennon was an anarchist, as do some about Charles Manson, and of course Manson thought the Helter Skelter song was about an upcoming race war, which Hellblazer has also said is going to happen.


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3WiBUibhsA"]Charles Manson on anarcho-primitivism (by proxy) - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Unarmed Gunman]

It says something about fear that the best you could conjure up is an image based on a FICTIONAL story.

I'm not willing to put a lot of time into an argument against the value of proper parenting. Children need guidance or bad things happen. We have plenty of real world examples of what happens when parents don't play an active role in their lives - ghettos are full of kids raising themselves and the results are not pretty. You do not want to run across a 16 year old thug that never had a parent correct their behavior.

Your response is to show pics from WWII since of course all kids that had good parenting grow up to drop bombs and cook Jews. You preach about logical fallacies yet somehow manage to make them in almost every post.

Childhood is training for serving the state later in life. Violence is used in both circumstances to teach obedience.

Really? All childhood? So childhood in an Anarchist setting would result in "training for serving the state later in life"? If you ever reproduced, your kids would be trained for serving the state later in life?

Anyway, the original point which have tried so hard to take off course is that Marxism != Communism. Just figured I'd remind you, I know you hate to be wrong, but it's ok you can just blame it on your parental upbringing if you'd like.

 

[kingofsp]

Sometimes it bums me out that Guerilla and UG don't get along.

 

[guerilla]

You preach about logical fallacies yet somehow manage to make them in almost every post.

If I post logical fallacies, call them out. Don't say I manage to make them "in almost every post" without pointing out one.

That's lazy and cowardly.

Really? All childhood? So childhood in an Anarchist setting would result in "training for serving the state later in life"? If you ever reproduced, your kids would be trained for serving the state later in life?

Childhood within context. If you want to participate in a discussion, don't ignore context. It's a waste of everyone's time.

Anyway, the original point which have tried so hard to take off course is that Marxism != Communism.

You could end the discussion anytime by detailing for all of us the key differences between Marxism and Communism. That would actually be a substantive contribution BY YOUR OWN MEASURE.

 

[guerilla]

Sometimes it bums me out that Guerilla and UG don't get along.

Not sure why.

Besides the fact he's from Detroit and I am from Windsor, and we both worked in automotive, not sure why we'd get along.

Ideologically, I am farther from UG than I am from a Marxist or Communist (see what I did there?)

 

[Unarmed Gunman]

If I post logical fallacies, call them out.

I already did.

Childhood within context. If you want to participate in a discussion, don't ignore context.

What context is that? You made an overly broad statement as if all parents train their kids to serve the state, and do so with violence and coercion. If you meant something different, then say it differently.

You could end the discussion anytime by detailing for all of us the key differences between Marxism and Communism.

You seem to have missed several posts detailing exactly that. Go back and reread them and if you have questions, post them. Otherwise we're just beating a dead horse.

Besides the fact he's from Detroit and I am from Windsor, and we both worked in automotive, not sure why we'd get along.

Well, I think we would both like to see the Tigers win the World Series right?

Ideologically, I am farther from UG than I am from a Marxist or Communist (see what I did there?)

You are definitely closer to a Marxist, than you are to me. You just believe in a different path to the same goal. I'd say you're the exact opposite of a communist though, at least in the Soviet (Leninist or Stalinist) sense.

 

[guerilla]

You seem to have missed several posts detailing exactly that. Go back and reread them and if you have questions, post them. Otherwise we're just beating a dead horse.

I don't see them. Link them.

 

[IceToEskimos]

Well, I think we would both like to see the Tigers win the World Series right?

I can abide a communist much easier than a Tiger fan.

 

[Unarmed Gunman]

I don't see them. Link them.

Redshield summed it up nicely. Not so sure about Trotsky, but the point remains. Marxism has never been put to the test, but Communism has in several incarnations. The differences are pretty clear actually.

I can abide a communist much easier than a Tiger fan.

1984 was a long time ago, cut us some slack.

 

[guerilla]

Redshield's summed it up nicely.

I already deconstructed Redshield's post.

I want to know where your posts are, since you apparently maintain there is some difference, and I have asked you numerous times to elucidate those differences for the benefit of all.

Put up or shut up. Hold yourself to the same standard you try to hold me to.

 

[Unarmed Gunman]

I already deconstructed Redshield's post.

I must have missed that. I mean I saw what looked like an attempt but, well...no.

you apparently maintain there is some difference, and I have asked you numerous times to elucidate those differences for the benefit of all.

True Marxists sought the destruction of the State, whereas "Communists" like Lenin and Stalin supported the dominance of the State. They are diametrically opposed.

Marxism has never been put to use on any large scale that I'm aware of. Communism, which is what Marx sought to more properly codify, was perverted by the likes of Lenin and Stalin to the point that the entire meaning of the word changed. Communism no longer sought the destruction of the state as Marx had advocated, but rather the dominance of the State as seen in the Soviet incarnation of communism.

The biggest examples of communism we've seen over the last 100 years (USSR, China, North Korea etc), have had overbearing state communist parties and were as far away from Marxism as one could get. When somebody refers to communism, it is this meaning that they use, and it is nothing like Marxism.

Now, if that's not a good enough explanation, you're gonna have to explain why you think Marxists and Communists are essentially the same thing (a distinction without a difference, as you said). You're the only person that doesn't seem to be grasping this and I'm getting bored with the subject.

Find a Marxist, grab some beer, and you guys can theorize all day long about the proper way to rid humanity of the State.

 

[guerilla]

True Marxists sought the destruction of the State, whereas "Communists" like Lenin and Stalin supported the dominance of the State. They are diametrically opposed.

We were never discussing the difference between Marxists and Communists. We were discussing the difference between Marxism and Communism.

To give you an example, comparing George Bush (a Christian) and the Dalai Lama (a Buddhist) isn't the same as comparing Christianity and Buddhism.

The rest of your response is more of the same. You're still not able to articulate what Marxism is, what Communism is, and what the supposed differences between them are.

This is what happens when you try to speak on topics you don't know. It's why you don't see me post about media buying, or science, or baseball. I don't enough about those topics to competently discuss them, and there is no way you learned enough about Marxism, including counter/supporting arguments in 4 days to be able to do so.

I'm not calling you out, just begging you not to waste both of our time in the future. I don't want to put you on ignore, but if you're going to insist on persisting in debate, at least whisper something sweet in my ear as you fuck me around.

 

[Unarmed Gunman]

We were never discussing the difference between Marxists and Communists. We were discussing the difference between Marxism and Communism.

This was your original post which started the discussion:

Because the most famous Communists like Stalin, Lenin, Trotsky, Marx...

...To which you were corrected by several posters including myself that those 4 were not all communists - Marx and Stalin in particular couldn't have been more different. I guess you forgot what we were discussing which might explain why your responses are so incoherent.

You're still not able to articulate what Marxism is, what Communism is, and what the supposed differences between them are.

What part of my explanation did you not understand? The difference has been articulated several times in this thread, including my last post. If you're not able to wrap your head around it, I can't help you. If your goal is to plug your ears and close your eyes and ignore it until I give up, you've almost succeeded.

there is no way you learned enough about Marxism, including counter/supporting arguments in 4 days to be able to do so.

Marxism is not new to me. The one having trouble with it is you. Odd, since you're the Anarchist.

 

[guerilla]

This was your original post which started the discussion

That was in reference to their race. Not the ideology. You and redshield decided to debate their ideologies.

Do I really need to explain this stuff? I mean, don't you feel just a little intellectually dirty, having to play these games to avoid owning up to making an error in argument?

I would.

...To which you were corrected by several posters including myself that those 4 were not all communists - Marx and Stalin in particular couldn't have been more different. I guess you forgot what we were discussing which might explain why your responses are so incoherent.

Everyone is different. Arguments to popularity are fallacies.

I know exactly what we were discussing. What is Communism? It is the thread title.

What part of my explanation did you not understand?

You avoided answering the question. Again.

You're still avoiding it.

Marxism is not new to me. The one having trouble with it is you. Odd, since you're the Anarchist.

I am pretty sure I have read more Marx, spent more time debating Marxists, and have a few years of thinking about Marxism on you.

You discovered some of Marx's writings earlier in this thread, and hilariously misinterpreted what you thought you read.

This is all comical to me. Including your typical "I can't admit I am wrong or ignorant" stance. I'm actually laughing as I type this, because you're so terribly predictable in every discussion.

You can have the last word.

I need to put you on ignore. Other folks here are right, debating with someone who won't employ reason is futile.

I am just too stubborn to give up sometimes. But not today.

You win. Enjoy.

 

[jimmyn]

communists have some kickass facial hair

Engels' was one of the best.

 

[jimmyn]

I must have missed that. I mean I saw what looked like an attempt but, well...no.



True Marxists sought the destruction of the State, whereas "Communists" like Lenin and Stalin supported the dominance of the State. They are diametrically opposed.

Marxism has never been put to use on any large scale that I'm aware of. Communism, which is what Marx sought to more properly codify, was perverted by the likes of Lenin and Stalin to the point that the entire meaning of the word changed. Communism no longer sought the destruction of the state as Marx had advocated, but rather the dominance of the State as seen in the Soviet incarnation of communism.

The biggest examples of communism we've seen over the last 100 years (USSR, China, North Korea etc), have had overbearing state communist parties and were as far away from Marxism as one could get. When somebody refers to communism, it is this meaning that they use, and it is nothing like Marxism.

Now, if that's not a good enough explanation, you're gonna have to explain why you think Marxists and Communists are essentially the same thing (a distinction without a difference, as you said). You're the only person that doesn't seem to be grasping this and I'm getting bored with the subject.

Find a Marxist, grab some beer, and you guys can theorize all day long about the proper way to rid humanity of the State.

I think the problem is that there are stages towards Communism which have never fully been played out, for one reason or another.

I think the USSR is used as a convenient example of communism used by people who are against it, as lots of bad stuff happened and it ultimately failed, but was it really communism?

You could say Lenin initiated one of the first stages in creating a dictatorship of the proletariat, but did it ever go beyond Lenin's version of socialism and transform into communism? I don't think it did.

Maybe Trotsky might have taken it further but he was killed on the orders Stalin, who obviously had different ideas as to how it should be taken forward. I think Stalin seemed to like the dictatorship part a bit too much, and under him the route took a detour to the right. Trotsky wrote a book "the revolution betrayed", which is interesting to read to see the way this could have gone had Trotsky, and not Stalin, taken over after Lenin. But then that leads to the question of whether they'd have resisted Nazi Germany under Trotsky.

I suppose what i'm saying is, i wouldn't say Marxism and Communism are different, just because Marxism is different to Communism in the USSR, as i don't think what happened there was Communism. I don't know enough about China or Korea to comment on them so they may prove otherwise.

Interesting thread anyway.

 

[TravisPPN]

I post here to warn the people...