Mars Mission: $2.5 billion - Worth It Given Alternatives?

[lukep]

Why Libertarianism Is Wrong - YouTube

What a fucking Nazi! (Sorry Dresden)

As a libertarian I do fully support his right to have the freedom to utter such insane rantings.

 

[erifdekciw]

Don't listen to anything lukep has to say he's a nut case.

If his idea of no government is such a great idea why has there never been a successful country / group of people that has done it before? Oh yea because they get shit on by another nation / government.

It doesn't work and it would hinder the advancement of the human race. If everyone was free to do their own shit we would be living in huts, gathering food and wiping our asses with twigs. There would be no point in trying to advance ourselves because whats the point? Lukep's idea of how the world should run is so out of touch with reality that anyone who believes his ideas would work should be put in the crazy house next to him.

Thousands of years of past history should tell you that freedom of government just doesn't work because there will always be someone bigger than you ready to stomp on you. That's why government exists. So drop the idiotic idea that the world would be a utopia without it.

People like luke give the human species too much credit. He thinks we would all be peachy and live in harmony if we were all free. He's too stupid to realize its taken us thousands of years to get where we are and it had nothing to do with letting everyone be free and live their lives.

 

[mattseh]

Guerrilla warfare.

swiss gonna swiss

 

[hehejo]

swiss gonna swiss

This solves a lot of intruder problems

 

[Fatbat]

Hmm, glad I didn't invest too much time in reading all of this thread...

Your loss. This shit is hilarious.

 

[Kiopa_Matt]

 

[dreamache]

If his idea of no government is such a great idea why has there never been a successful country / group of people that has done it before? Oh yea because they get shit on by another nation / government.

So something must exist because it's always existed before, and vice versa? Under that logic, we would be living in huts, gathering food and wiping our asses with twigs.

It doesn't work and it would hinder the advancement of the human race.

Yes! Violence from an hierarchical system is a necessity!

If everyone was free to do their own shit we would be living in huts, gathering food and wiping our asses with twigs. There would be no point in trying to advance ourselves because whats the point?

Are you really asking what the point would be in advancing ourselves if people were free? My mind is literally full of fuck after having read that. You're making the argument that innovation can only occur when you have a group of people pointing a gun in your back. How does that make any sense?

Thousands of years of past history should tell you that freedom of government just doesn't work because there will always be someone bigger than you ready to stomp on you. That's why government exists. So drop the idiotic idea that the world would be a utopia without it.

You do understand that defense & security would still exist, right?

People like luke give the human species too much credit. He thinks we would all be peachy and live in harmony if we were all free. He's too stupid to realize its taken us thousands of years to get where we are and it had nothing to do with letting everyone be free and live their lives.

It must be great being a happy & content slave.

edit: I realized I was just trolled.

 

[Kiopa_Matt]

It must be great being a happy & content slave.

A slave? Really? How does paying taxes equate to this?

You anarchists act as if the world & life has shit all over you, and things are unbearably hard. All the while, we're actually enjoying a more prosperous and bountiful life than has ever been achieved in history by the human species. Sure there's problems, and progress to be made, but dismantling everything, and dragging us back by hundreds of years probably isn't the solution.

 

[hehejo]

A slave? Really? How does paying taxes equate to this?

You anarchists act as if the world & life has shit all over you, and things are unbearably hard. All the while, we're actually enjoying a more prosperous and bountiful life than has ever been achieved by the human species in history.

Just a difference in degree, not kind.

 

[Fatbat]

You do understand that defense & security would still exist, right?

It will? Who's going to pay for it? Will it be by donations or will you get a monthly bill for $162.78 for the military (your monthly share of the annual budget assuming every man, woman and child alive pays the same) to go along with your 127 other monthly bills?

If you pay annually, will they give you a discount like they do on car insurance? If you don't pay it, what happens to you? Do they send a collection agency after you? Do they garnish your wages? Do they eventually bring charges against you and throw you in jail? Sounds suspiciously like taxes to me.

Everyone is moaning about these services being "mandated". Will they not be mandated in your new utopian society? Or will they be purely voluntary? Do you get a menu of services that you can pick and choose which to pay from? Or do you just get the bills every month which you are expected to pay? If it's the former and no one decides to pay for certain services what happens then? Do those services go bankrupt and cease to exist? If it's the later then it's still mandated and there's not a whole lot of difference between what is happening now.

 

[JakeStratham]

At Kiopa_Matt: one of the reasons some of us ignore you on these topics is because the things you say are nonsensical. You make associations that do not exist. You make accusations that are entirely unfounded. You make assertions that are unsupported by logic. As a result, to those of us who treasure logic as a tool that leads to truth, your words have little weight or meaning.

For example:

It must be great being a happy & content slave.

A slave? Really? How does paying taxes equate to this?

Who has claimed that being forced to pay taxes is the same as being butchered and beaten? You may have inferred this from dreamache's words. But if you did, you were wrong to do so. His meaning was clear to me. It was unclear to you.

The question is, why are you having difficulty understanding him?

...

You anarchists act as if the world & life has shit all over you

Referring to anarchists as a group is problematic. Point someone out, highlight the words they used, and demonstrate how that person said the "world and life has shit all over" them.

If you cannot do so, the problem is likely poor inference and/or poor comprehension. Or, you are simply emoting using general accusations that mean nothing. In any case, the problem is yours.

...

...and things are unbearably hard.

Here again, you are attributing words to a group, but have yet to identify the individual who has said them, and point out where that person did so.

There is nothing behind your associations, accusations, and assertions. Or, if there is, you have not seen fit to present the evidence. I have read this thread carefully, and have not seen it.

...

All the while, we're actually enjoying a more prosperous and bountiful life than has ever been achieved in history by the human species.

Another reason you are ignored is because your words continually betray an ignorance regarding basic economics. We are going bankrupt. We are essentially living on a credit card. Productivity has slowed. Savings and capital are being attacked and discouraged on several fronts. This "prosperous and bountiful life" you speak of has been financed.

There you have it. You make associations that do not exist; you make accusations that are unfounded; and you make assertions that are unsupported by logic. And just as important, you lack a basic understanding of economics, despite the numerous resources that have been posted here. Logic is not your strong suit, and it seems as if you have done little reading on economics to familiarize yourself with it.

Discussing these topics with someone like that is unrewarding. And that is the reason you are ignored.

 

[pfgannon]

The caliber of some of these objections to anarchy proves just how little time has been spent researching the topic before it's denounced as impossible.

 

[JakeStratham]

It will? Who's going to pay for it? Will it be by donations or will you get a monthly bill for $162.78 for the military (your monthly share of the annual budget assuming every man, woman and child alive pays the same) to go along with your 127 other monthly bills?

If you pay annually, will they give you a discount like they do on car insurance? If you don't pay it, what happens to you? Do they send a collection agency after you? Do they garnish your wages? Do they eventually bring charges against you and throw you in jail? Sounds suspiciously like taxes to me.

Everyone is moaning about these services being "mandated". Will they not be mandated in your new utopian society? Or will they be purely voluntary? Do you get a menu of services that you can pick and choose which to pay from? Or do you just get the bills every month which you are expected to pay? If it's the former and no one decides to pay for certain services what happens then? Do those services go bankrupt and cease to exist? If it's the later then it's still mandated and there's not a whole lot of difference between what is happening now.

The Private Production of Defense - by Hans Hoppe

Many of the issues you bring up are addressed in Hoppe's essay.

 

[lukep]

Who said anything about initiating violence? if I want to dump toxic chemicals why shouldn't I?

Is your sense of morality really so warped as to not see how the land owner would feel that this act is violent against them? Imagine if he were standing right there, at his property line as you pulled the truck up. Wouldn't dumping it on his line then make you an evildoer? Wouldn't he be upset?

There's no EPA, there's no laws against dumping toxic chemicals.

There can be a privatized EPA. Laws too work just fine under Anarchy.

Research Moar.

I didn't intend to hurt anybody, it's not my fault some kids with shit parents played in it. It's a free society right? What am I doing wrong?

Ignorance cannot be an excuse. If it were ANY society would crumble and fall.

No matter anyway, my private security force will fight the insurance company's private goons to the death since they have no more power over me than anybody else.

And what makes you think they'll want to fight an army and risk their lives for a client of theirs who would obviously lose the court battle? You couldn't use private security for this... You'd have to pay the big bucks for Mercanaries who don't ask too many questions.

You fucked up big time on this one.

Oh really. Please enlighten us.

So what? I'm armed to the teeth and I have private security. Come at me bro. I'll keep doing what I want because nobody has any authoritarian power over me. Especially with all my money, I can buy the biggest guns.

The more you behave that way in such a society, the more the villagers will get restless and plot to remove you. It's a losing stance to take 100% of the time... Peace is the answer. Learn what the Non Aggression Principle is all about... You seem to equate anarchy with violence when in fact it is quite the opposite.

That is my point, you're complaining about the government threatening people with violence, yet your anarchist society does exactly the same thing, just with no accountability.

No, you are simply uneducated on this matter. Again, read about the non aggression principle. Stopping conflicts is easy if no one initiates the aggression.

Ohhh, kick ass. So hitmen are legal, and you don't have to worry about that pesky evidence and trial stuff anymore. That actually does sound quite efficient! Instead of businesses busting ass to provide better value than the competition, they can just put a hit out on the competition. Much easier!

So you hear about security and you assume they are hitmen. Wow, talk about being uninformed.

You too, DESPERATELY need to learn about the non aggression principle.

Huh? Wait... what??? So if the Mexico govt and police force didn't exist, there wouldn't be any drug gangs in Mexico, fighting over various areas (ie. markets of consumers)? You can't possibly believe that.

Please stop before you embarrass yourself too much.

How could gangs get their power & money if their product wasn't banned by the government and therefore made artificially expensive and worth committing murder for? How could they have risen to such heights of power without corrupt government officials giving them government protection and resources under the table? (Things that wouldn't exist if there were no government there.)

Please research a bit more before you respond on this subject again.

And when 100,000 foreign, blood thirsty soldiers show up, and murder everyone at Pinkertons?

Now you're really reaching. Why not just ask me what's bigger than the Biggest?

Sorry, but when the foreign military force shows up, I don't think they'll buy the, "sorry, we're anarchists and don't believe in violence" line.

I personally assume that anarchy can't survive a foreign governments' existence. Seasteads may be an exception but I doubt they could get very big while governments exist. The society I personally am speaking about can only be created once the people of the entire planet wake up and understand anarchy, which of course will take a little while or two. So there is no need to argue the point of foriegn invaders, there simply wouldn't be any.

These government funded, private security companies are scary indeed.

Do some research on Wackenhut.

Yep, I'm sure the --->GOVERNMENT FUNDED<--- private security companies are indeed very scary. It gives me nightmares thinking about their evils.

For those that don't see the difference between a Wackenhut and a Pinkerton in the Free Market, you really need to research a lot more.

A slave? Really? How does paying taxes equate to this?

Quite simply because we aren't free. No one is arguing that their masters didn't use more excessive force against them directly. (Of course our masters today DO kill thousands or millions of innocents every single year.)

You anarchists act as if the world & life has shit all over you, and things are unbearably hard. All the while, we're actually enjoying a more prosperous and bountiful life than has ever been achieved in history by the human species. Sure there's problems, and progress to be made, but dismantling everything, and dragging us back by hundreds of years probably isn't the solution.

Wow, you're so blinded by the gilding on your shiny cage that you actually DESPISE freedom, don't you?

 

[lukep]

Let's move all this liberty talk over here guys:

http://www.wickedfire.com/shooting-shit/162295-land-free.html

We've gone so far offtrack here that it's disrespectful to man's future in space.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Posting in a deleted thread

 

[Kiopa_Matt]

We are going bankrupt. We are essentially living on a credit card. Productivity has slowed. Savings and capital are being attacked and discouraged on several fronts. This "prosperous and bountiful life" you speak of has been financed.

Yes, the US, and various other Western nations are on the decline. There's also various areas in the world that are experiencing double digit GDP growth right now. Empires rise and fall -- that doesn't change the fact that from a historical perspective, us humans are currently enjoying an extremely high standard of living.

No, you are simply uneducated on this matter. Again, read about the non aggression principle. Stopping conflicts is easy if no one initiates the aggression.

Oh man, but... just because you read something, doesn't make it a realistic possibility. You can't just gather around and say, "ok, no aggression allowed guys", and expect it to happen. And I highly doubt evolution is going to kick in within the next 10 years to make this a possibility either.

By nature, us humans can be quite greedy and vicious individuals, and like it or not, that's one of the many factors that's contributed to our advancement as a species. Call it a necessary evil. It's genetically programmed into us though, and you're not going to change it.

How could gangs get their power & money if their product wasn't banned by the government and therefore made artificially expensive and worth committing murder for?

They would do exactly what they do now. For example, take the Hell's Angels. If they see a profitable area for drugs and/or prostitution that they'd like to control, they simply move in, and through force kick all existing gangs and drug dealers out of the area. Then settle in, monopolize, and charge whatever they want to the residents of that area. Only thing that would be accomplished by removing the police from the equation would be the process would become quicker, harsher, more violent, and more streamlined.

Quite simply because we aren't free.

I don't know, maybe we have totally different perceptions of the world, because you live in the US, whereas I don't. Have lived in a decent number of countries now, including the US for a year when I was a teenager, and I can safely safe the US is a unique country compared to the rest of the world.

Gotta say though, don't feel like a slave in the slightest right now. Sure I have to jump through some hoops with immigration, and pay taxes, but that's fine with me. I would rather pay one tax bill to a corrupt govt that's elected by the people every few years, versus paying 90 bills to private entities such as Goldman Sachs and Halliburton to provide the essential services.

 

[Falian]

Yes, the US, and various other Western nations are on the decline. There's also various areas in the world that are experiencing double digit GDP growth right now. Empires rise and fall -- that doesn't change the fact that from a historical perspective, us humans are currently enjoying an extremely high standard of living.

We don't always agree, but this times 1,000. I get sick of all the doomsayers acting like we are about to regress to the middle ages.

 

[Midas Touch]

Space Adventures.......To Infinity/Mars.......and BEYOND!!!!!!!

TL;DR

Original
Space Food Sticks and Astronaut Food

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPZ8HHRR1A0"]Space Food Sticks TV Commercial - YouTube[/ame]
(BTW, The Peanut Butter was the best!!)





Knock-Off
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8XMzQUOWcA"]Space Food Sticks TV Commercial - YouTube[/ame]



Hmm....these bags kinda look familiar don't they?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-gML3S0WK8"]Astronaut Breakfast with Tang TV commercial - YouTube[/ame]

Lulz


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6t6zoY9zaVQ"]TANG tv commercial 1970 - YouTube[/ame]


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wf1kw5Yp9Ck"]commercial - Tang - YouTube[/ame]




[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R99hAG0tgkg"]Major Matt Mason commercial ( Mattel 1968 ) - YouTube[/ame]


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKFXA4zg5XQ"]They Don't Make Them Like They Used To - YouTube[/ame]



[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBtPmuTrtAk"]Hasbro The original GI Joe Astronaut TV commercial 1967-69 - YouTube[/ame]


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaNHiTHEQzM"]Hasbro GI Joe Adventure Team Astronaut TV commercial - YouTube[/ame]





[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgVI3ikZpw0"]Barbie 1986 Commercial "Astronaut Barbie" - YouTube[/ame]


V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V



To keep in the Spirit this thread seems to have taken on......I'll end it with this little Vid....

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhhN-YBmgWo"]Astronaut Commercial - YouTube[/ame]



Hurrpitty Dhurrpitty

 

[lukep]

Empires rise and fall -- that doesn't change the fact that from a historical perspective, us humans are currently enjoying an extremely high standard of living.

And an extremely high standard of Slavery to match.

Think of the wild west. As close to anarchy as you could get, yet the historical facts on the western frontier show it to be FAR more peaceful than we have today. Neighbors watched out for each other, never looking for ways to kill them. People like Billy the Kid were so rare that he was made into a legend... Meanwhile banks get robbed in the USA 100 times a day now.

Excepting for the technology the old west was a PARADISE. What's happened since then but a tech upgrade to make that better? How much more tech could we have today without government regulation?

Oh man, but... just because you read something, doesn't make it a realistic possibility. You can't just gather around and say, "ok, no aggression allowed guys", and expect it to happen. And I highly doubt evolution is going to kick in within the next 10 years to make this a possibility either.

Silly socialist, aggression is for your folk, not people who believe in the NAP.

By nature, us humans can be quite greedy and vicious individuals, and like it or not, that's one of the many factors that's contributed to our advancement as a species. Call it a necessary evil. It's genetically programmed into us though, and you're not going to change it.

Wouldn't dream of it. But you think anarchy will take mankind in a direction he was never headed in, while I say it will lead mankind to simply keep on evolving in the direction he was going before Government placed chains around his neck.

For example, take the Hell's Angels. If they see a profitable area for drugs and/or prostitution that they'd like to control, they simply move in, and through force kick all existing gangs and drug dealers out of the area. Then settle in, monopolize, and charge whatever they want to the residents of that area. Only thing that would be accomplished by removing the police from the equation would be the process would become quicker, harsher, more violent, and more streamlined.

Wow, you just used a gang of drug and prostitution merchants to illustrate your point. You really don't have what it takes to get this, do you?

One last time here:

Drugs: Made illegal by government.

Prostitutes: Made illegal by government.

Free men should be able to use both. ONLY ONLY ONLY ONLY ONLY the government has created the situation you look down upon. Those gentlemen on the motorbikes wouldn't have any power at all if the governments' laws didn't make their product so expensive and dangerous. It's precisely why the drug war is a failure.

The hells angels would be just like shoe salesmen with their own storefronts if not for the gov. Are you claiming that shoe salesmen would use guns to kill their competitors just because there is no government?

Gotta say though, don't feel like a slave in the slightest right now. Sure I have to jump through some hoops with immigration, and pay taxes, but that's fine with me. I would rather pay one tax bill to a corrupt govt that's elected by the people every few years, versus paying 90 bills to private entities such as Goldman Sachs and Halliburton to provide the essential services.

The best trick the devil ever did was convincing the world he doesn't exist. How can your standards get so low?

And how do you know the people are really electing anyone? Did you count the hand-written ballots yourself?

And since you mentioned them, Goldman Sachs & Halliburton are both perfect examples of companies that aquired UNGODLY amounts of power from the government and the government alone.