This Would Absolutely Never Happen In America

hellblazer said:
Yeah, cancer's just one disease anyways. And I'm sure the U.S. healthcare system has nothing to do with the higher survival rates - it just MUST be those 'environmental factors'.

Heaven forbid socialized medicine not be God's gift to us, right???? The horror!

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Some people will defend shit even when its been exposed as shit. It's kinda sad, actually.
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You do realize of course that "Europe" includes a goodly portion of eastern bloc countries barely emerging from 3rd world status and that most Westernized or "developed" European countries supposedly fare quite a bit better than the US. We can play statistics wars all day though, they can be bent to suit whatever argument you are trying to make.

Death from cancer by country. Definition, graph and map.




# 1 Netherlands: 433 deaths per 100,000 people
# 2 Italy: 418 deaths per 100,000 people
# 3 Hungary: 411 deaths per 100,000 people
# 4 Luxembourg: 409.7 deaths per 100,000 people
# 5 Slovakia: 405.3 deaths per 100,000 people
# 6 Ireland: 357.6 deaths per 100,000 people
# 7 Czech Republic: 335.4 deaths per 100,000 people
# 8 New Zealand: 327.3 deaths per 100,000 people
# 9 United States: 321.9 deaths per 100,000 people
# 10 Australia: 298.9 deaths per 100,000 people
# 11 Norway: 289.4 deaths per 100,000 people
# 12 France: 286.1 deaths per 100,000 people
# 13 Austria: 280 deaths per 100,000 people
# 14 Sweden: 268.2 deaths per 100,000 people
# 15 Finland: 255.4 deaths per 100,000 people
# 16 United Kingdom: 253.5 deaths per 100,000 people
 


Fatbat said:
You do realize of course that "Europe" includes a goodly portion of eastern bloc countries barely emerging from 3rd world status
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Yeah, emerging from single payer, socialist economies to be precise.

People love to flirt with egalitarianism, completely missing the lessons of history, that these systems of social "fairness" are setup to benefit the ruling classes, and that the little guy has only prospered when there has been competition, property rights and free markets.

/soapbox
 
The deaths per 100,000 is pretty meaningless because of differences in lifestyle - for example, Americans are fatter than Europeans, they eat different foods, maybe they watch more TV, etc. Another example: people who live near the equator get MS much less frequently than those who live very far north, most likely because of the amount of sun/vitamin D they get. But the vitamin D/sun prevention of MS has nothing to do with the quality of the health care systems in the countries.

hellblazer's chart is showing the cancer survival rate for those who already have it. It's not showing how many people get sick in the first place.


Fatbat said:
You do realize of course that "Europe" includes a goodly portion of eastern bloc countries barely emerging from 3rd world status and that most Westernized or "developed" European countries supposedly fare quite a bit better than the US. We can play statistics wars all day though, they can be bent to suit whatever argument you are trying to make.

Death from cancer by country. Definition, graph and map.




# 1 Netherlands: 433 deaths per 100,000 people
# 2 Italy: 418 deaths per 100,000 people
# 3 Hungary: 411 deaths per 100,000 people
# 4 Luxembourg: 409.7 deaths per 100,000 people
# 5 Slovakia: 405.3 deaths per 100,000 people
# 6 Ireland: 357.6 deaths per 100,000 people
# 7 Czech Republic: 335.4 deaths per 100,000 people
# 8 New Zealand: 327.3 deaths per 100,000 people
# 9 United States: 321.9 deaths per 100,000 people
# 10 Australia: 298.9 deaths per 100,000 people
# 11 Norway: 289.4 deaths per 100,000 people
# 12 France: 286.1 deaths per 100,000 people
# 13 Austria: 280 deaths per 100,000 people
# 14 Sweden: 268.2 deaths per 100,000 people
# 15 Finland: 255.4 deaths per 100,000 people
# 16 United Kingdom: 253.5 deaths per 100,000 people
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You do realize of course that "Europe" includes a goodly portion of eastern bloc countries barely emerging from 3rd world status and that most Westernized or "developed" European countries supposedly fare quite a bit better than the US.
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And what sort of government did eastern bloc countries have? Oh wait...
 
Fatbat said:
You do realize of course that "Europe" includes a goodly portion of eastern bloc countries barely emerging from 3rd world status and that most Westernized or "developed" European countries supposedly fare quite a bit better than the US. We can play statistics wars all day though, they can be bent to suit whatever argument you are trying to make.

Death from cancer by country. Definition, graph and map.
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Wow, what a dishonest way to defend socialized medicine. Your link is meaningless and you're basically trying to deceive readers. Anything could contribute to developing cancer. The mark of a health system is how well it treats or cures it. The survival rate is the only true gauge here. Stop trying to confuse people.
 
johu said:
Newsflash: The President does not write legislation.
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Betcha Obama is the first person to publicly take credit for it if it passes though.

Obama >> Pelosi >> Congress
Obama >> Reid >> Senators

Of course he doesn't openly write legislation, he just meets in dark hallways late at night with Princess Nancy and Prince Harry to do his evil bidding.
 
hellblazer said:
This makes me literally sick. Obama just bribed a Senator to support this pile of shit - with our money. He truly is despicable.

Witness The Bribing Of A Senator
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LotsOfZeros said:
Betcha Obama is the first person to publicly take credit for it if it passes though.

Obama >> Pelosi >> Congress
Obama >> Reid >> Senators

Of course he doesn't openly write legislation, he just meets in dark hallways late at night with Princess Nancy and Prince Harry to do his evil bidding.
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:::evil_laughter: evil laughter::

------------

Little late in the show but, concessions are still open.

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hellblazer said:
Yeah, cancer's just one disease anyways. And I'm sure the U.S. healthcare system has nothing to do with the higher survival rates - it just MUST be those 'environmental factors'.

Heaven forbid socialized medicine not be God's gift to us, right???? The horror!

1704.gif


Some people will defend shit even when its been exposed as shit. It's kinda sad, actually.
Click to expand...
Sorry, but I'm going to lose my shit here because you seriously don't fucking get it!
There is a third option that means you can have whichever function you want: Private or Socialised.
Oddly enough, this means there are shades of grey... But then again, I've noticed in other threads that revolve around ideologies, you guys see none of those, you only see green, and the red & white checkers of a terrorists tea-towel. Yeah, that's a fucking ad-hominem right there.

I'm arguing for a hybrid system, like the one I happen to enjoy. I think I even mentioned that. Or maybe the American rates of selective amnesia are also substantially higher?

I have plenty of choice whether to pick socialised or privatised cover, as does every one else in Australia. We have a hybrid system. Like I'm advocating for.
If we take private cover, we get our medicare tax back come rebate time.
Considering how much tax I pay, the $800 or so medicare levy that I pay (If you understand how our tax system works, you get the idea I'm no pauper) is not offset by the cost of private insurance nor the additional government rebate.
Insurance which would deliver the exact same outcome here for anything other than elective surgeries (which I don't want or need) or preventative medicine.
So don't you dare tell me that the system I've got steals the choice. If anything it provides me with more than you have.

Now, show me a graph that compares the hybrid system I'm advocating, i.e. US Vs Aus, and make sure you have other shit on there too, like heart disease and major trauma... because otherwise you're comparing apples to whatever bullshit fruit you're cherry picking here.

Oh, and in case you missed it again, I'm advocating a hybrid system where people can get private cover if they want to, or can defer the costs straight back to their taxes.
 
Summary:
Socialized healthcare isn't
Capitalistic healthcare is a bitch
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Funny thing is, none of the countries I have been living and insured under a "socialized" healthcare have a single payer system.

I was just talking to Seth the other day and Germany has over 200(!!!) health insurance companies for government-regulated healthcare and Switzerland (with only 8 Million people in it) has near to a hundred.

A lot of these insurers also offer private insurance, which is always an option if you desire it.

Fun thing is that no one can be kept out of a government health insurance (or basic insurance) that covers normal treatments.

Things the private insurances offers (and competes on) are:
- access to better hospitalization (NOT a better hospital, but things like a 1-bed room)
- WEIRD STUPID SHIT sold as "alternative medicine"

You can get all that as a "normal" government patient as well, you just have to pay for it.

None of this is really socialized (that's why I am putting socialized in quotes all the time), as you still have to pay for it out of your paycheck. But if you are unemployed, the state pays for it.

This system is also great for people with chronic ilnesses.

I have been treated for allergic asthma since I was 3 years old. The pure thought of getting unemployed (which is easy in this economy), loosing insurance and then being unable to pick up a new one because of "pre-existing conditions" is a pure fucking nightmare.

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Anyhow, not all is well with the German (or Swiss) system and thank you, we are aware of the issues.

Funny thing to look at is that Germany has been trying to "privatize" healthcare for quite some time now. Homes for the elderly are now more often than not owned by healthcare companies, as are many hospitals, actually.

As someone who has close ties to health personell and has also worked in the industry, I can tell you that this is no paradise.

Capitalism also means: Cutting costs. In healthcare, this has lead to some of the most atrocious things I have ever seen.
- Cutting staff to levels where "care" is nothing but impossible
- skimping on medical supplies
- outsourcing of medical services like washing and sewing of surgical tissues to developing world countries with all the quality issues this brings
- heavy reliance on cheap workers (nurses) and interns (medical students, if yer lucky)
etc..

All of these happen when you privatize and capitalize healthcare.

Not a good idea.

::emp::
 
guerilla said:
In 1991, the USSR ceased to exist due to a complete collapse of their phony socialist economy.
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It's a bit more complicated than that. "Sinatra Doctrine", Glasnost, Perestroika, etc.

While your intentions may not be malicious, you are arguing that you have a right to something you cannot pay for by forcing someone else to pay for it, under the force of government arms.
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I would guess that at this point in their life they would be the ones doing more of the paying than the receiving. Right or wrong, the "government arms" thing would apply to all nations that collect taxes as chosen by democratically elected leaders. A dictatorship where people are forced to remain in the country by gunpoint would be a different story. You probably live in an area where the citizens are forced to pay for high school sports, yet the idea of paying for an injured player's hospital visit causes more controversy.
 
turbolapp said:
You know I always see a lot of bickering on this subject but rarely any solutions.
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Tort reform - conservatives have been trumpeting it for years. Only the Democrats (Yes Unripe, the same guys who care about the little man) have been backing lawyers on this for years and blocking any progress to it.

It's probably because you see everything through your Maddow-goggles.
 
LotsOfZeros said:
Tort reform - conservatives have been trumpeting it for years. Only the Democrats (Yes Unripe, the same guys who care about the little man) have been backing lawyers on this for years and blocking any progress to it.

It's probably because you see everything through your Maddow-goggles.
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Tort reform is almost completely unrelated to healthcare costs. It's a red herring thrown out again and again to derail the real conversation.

Tort costs as a % of healthcare dollars have remained nearly constant for years. If they were a driving force they would be an increasing percentage over time. The fact of the matter is most medical malpractice suits are settled, not adjudicated. The high profile ones mainly center around "never events" - things that should have never happened.

Statistics on Tort reform related to healthcare costs are here:

http://www.towersperrin.com/tp/getwebcachedoc?webc=USA/2008/200811/2008_tort_costs_trends.pdf
 
Trademark said:
Bickering aside, solutions have been posted on this forum many times. Here is one of them...

A Four-Step Healthcare Solution - Hans-Hermann Hoppe - Mises Institute

What type of solution are looking for, turbolapp?
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When I read your article (the beginning) this quickly came to mind......

bmm0091l.jpg


Dogmatic Mantra:
All of our problems (sub par profits....to hell with people's health) are because of regulations.....DEREGULATE people!!

king_kong_movie_roar.jpg

"My taxes are so fucking high and I don't give a damn about other people.......just give me my MONEY!!!! "


It all comes down to people want to keep the money that they earn. (well hell yeah, this is totally legitimate)

Personally, I really don't mind paying more (yes, more) taxes for health care for people that are underprivileged (you may find it easier to think of these people as "lazy as fuck".)

I recognize the fact that underprivileged people actually do exist in this country and the system as we now know it has failed them..... If the system how it is now was going to work it would have worked by now..... we need progress (progressives, liberals, change, etc. :) )

I mean damn....once one has so much money does it really matter if a small chunk of it is goes to some anonymous fellow countryman's health?

You reach a point where taxes can be taken from you and it won't affect your personal lifestyle in the slightest.....however that money could save some anonymous person's life.....

Yeah, yeah.... Let me keep my money and I'll decide who to give it to.... I'll decide, not the government......

OK! Then do it!! Why do we have so many people that are still suffering without life insurance..... DONATE TO THESE PEOPLE NOW!.....solve the problem and remove this voting bloc from existence........

It hasn't happened so this voting bloc (the lazy as fuck/there are some actual disadvantages in this group too) votes democratic and gets what they want that way.

I say conservatives need to put their money where their mouth is.....if not.......the government will just mandate the damn thing....done.

We have had decades to get this shit done, let's do it now.

You can judge a country by how well it treats its people and its animals (what else matters?)......

Let's start treating the uninsured people of this country like they're actual people....

We are the last 1st world country (it seems) to get our shit together on this issue. Dammit. It's embarrassing.

Anyway.... ::ignore that, carry on::

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Edit: It isn't like I donate to these people now either...... but I would......... I'm just lazy in that manner(as I'm sure most people are)....... it would be easier for me if they took it straight out of my taxes. I'll just consider my increase taxes as my "donation"....and I won't even have to think about it.
 
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