McCain is a cocksucker

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I don't believe in voting for the lesser of two evils
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DanielQ said:
I, too, wonder how people can want more government involvement.
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Isn't that pretty obvious? There's a reason why the majority of the democrat voters are poor or have low income (and vice verca). Poor people don't mind a little bit of government involvement if they get more money/security. But people that already HAVE that money and security are free. And free people hate being bossed around and having things stolen from them. It's the same thing in almost every country...
 
pat J said:
Isn't that pretty obvious? There's a reason why the majority of the democrat voters are poor or have low income (and vice verca). Poor people don't mind a little bit of government involvement if they get more money/security. But people that already HAVE that money and security are free. And free people hate being bossed around and having things stolen from them. It's the same thing in almost every country...
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Not true. (assuming you're insinuating the higher socioeconomic class tends to be republican) The republican right is very pro government. You're labeled unpatriotic if you even so much as question your government.

It swings both ways with democrats and republicans.
 
DanielQ said:
I don't believe that the corporations are using the government.
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Then what are lobbyists?

pat J said:
There's a reason why the majority of the democrat voters are poor or have low income (and vice verca).
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Actually, the south tends to be poorer and also predominantly votes Republican. The northeastern states such as New Hampshire, Connecticut, New York, Vermont etc, tend to be the richest and also vote Democratic. We also know that Republican voters tend to have lower IQ's than Democratic voters.

But I still want a revolution...
 
MaxSteve said:
So instead of discussing a liberal point, it's labeled as a socialist point. Instead of discussing a conservative point, it's labeled as a fascist point. The constant use of extreme labels and arguments by one side immediately cause the other side to use the same tactics. So instead of two sides debating and discussing things WITH each other, we've now got two sides yelling and arguing AT each other. Nothing gets resolved.
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Liberalism is not socialism. Classic liberals were for laissez-faire, free markets, sound money, individual liberty. We're talking about Tucker, Jefferson, Spooner, etc. Liberalism was not about race quotas, welfare, socialism or redistributionism. It certainly wasn't progressivism, which is actually regressivism by policy.

I'm not sure if your post was directed at me, but the art of debate is not mislabelling things. Socialism as Turbo stated is the public ownership of the means of production. Government health care, is socialism. Government education, is socialism. It's not liberal. The left-right liberal-conservative tags are just to make it feel like a game, and that we have a stake in it. Red team vs. Blue team, it's straight out of a futuristic dystopian sci-fi novel like Running Man.
 
DanielQ said:
Apolitical, as in politically apathetic? I would agree that, if you vote, you should vote for something and not against something. I don't believe in voting for the lesser of two evils - vote for "no" evil.
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Not apathetic. Apolitical in that I don't have a horse in the race. There is no one I would want to lead me. There certainly are better choices, but no one I want to be my King or Emperor.
 
turbolapp said:
Why are we talking about socialism? Socialism is the collective (i.e. public) ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods and services. Who wants that? I would like the government to be less involved in my life, not more, thank you. Now I don't have a problem with a sweeping health care reform but I don't see why we have to start talking changing our entire political structure just for health care. Why can't the much needed reform be the exception and not the rule?
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What government ran service do you know that is ran without miles of red tape and burecracy.

Why do we need any kind of reform for health care. Anyone can buy $4 prescriptions from Walmart. Any child in a low income family can recieve health and dental care for free ( at least in my state). Emergency rooms do not throw you out if you can't pay. The elderly are covered by medicare.

Now medical insurance is what needs reformed. Rabid and sue happy malpractice attorneys need reformed and our problem with millions of illegal aliens that don't pay taxes yet use our emergency rooms for routine doctor visits, need to be reformed (sorry liberals).

Comprehinsive healthcare is a bad idea. I don't want to wait months to be able to see a doctor. I don't wan't the government telling me what weight I have to be or what I can or can't eat. Look at Canada...NO THANKS!
 
popeye said:
What government ran service do you know that is ran without miles of red tape and burecracy.

Why do we need any kind of reform for health care. Anyone can buy $4 prescriptions from Walmart. Any child in a low income family can recieve health and dental care for free ( at least in my state). Emergency rooms do not throw you out if you can't pay. The elderly are covered by medicare.

Now medical insurance is what needs reformed. Rabid and sue happy malpractice attorneys need reformed and our problem with millions of illegal aliens that don't pay taxes yet use our emergency rooms for routine doctor visits, need to be reformed (sorry liberals).

Comprehinsive healthcare is a bad idea. I don't want to wait months to be able to see a doctor. I don't wan't the government telling me what weight I have to be or what I can or can't eat. Look at Canada...NO THANKS!
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Where did you get those blinders of yours? At walmart with the 4 dollar prescriptions?
 
pat J said:
Isn't that pretty obvious? There's a reason why the majority of the democrat voters are poor or have low income (and vice verca). Poor people don't mind a little bit of government involvement if they get more money/security. But people that already HAVE that money and security are free. And free people hate being bossed around and having things stolen from them. It's the same thing in almost every country...
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That may be part of it, but there has to be more to it than social class. You certainly are right that people want more government when it benefits them personally. This is truly a tragedy because it hurts the overall liberty an economic prosperity of America.

Unarmed Gunman said:
Then what are lobbyists?
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Lobbyists are trying to force their special interests. That doesn't mean they succeed, and it certainly doesn't mean they have as much control as guerilla seems to think. I'm not saying it's not a problem - it is. I'm just saying that the government isn't "used by corporations to rape the citizen of his wealth and liberty." That isn't to say we're not heading towards fascism or that the citizen isn't being raped of his wealth or liberty, but simply that corporations aren't the primarily cause behind it. It's big government, not big business.

guerilla said:
Not apathetic. Apolitical in that I don't have a horse in the race. There is no one I would want to lead me. There certainly are better choices, but no one I want to be my King or Emperor.
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That is quite understandable.
 
Unarmed Gunman said:
$4 prescriptions for anything at WalMart huh?

I can't say that's the dumbest shit I ever heard, but it's certainly up there.
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didn't mean it covers every prescription but it covers alot of your basics. I am sure glad alot of you werent alive back when our great grandparents lived. They had 0 social services and they just sucked it up and worked a little harder to get by.

I can't imagine the hurt ass whinning from the entitled liberals if they had to actually be responsible for thier own lives.
 
popeye said:
didn't mean it covers every prescription but it covers alot of your basics. I am sure glad alot of you werent alive back when our great grandparents lived. They had 0 social services and they just sucked it up and worked a little harder to get by.
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When our great grand parents were alive, there also wasn't such a thing as anti-biotics, and medicinal compounds were just as likely to kill you as the disease you had.
They also still had a functional barter economy, and basic staples such as shelter, clothing and food were at a proportionally lower cost.
I'll happily admit that a lot of "poverty" is caused by people's "needs" for things like nikes, a mobile phone and an HDTV.

That said, let's look further back.
The Romans had social welfare (admittedly only for food, and only for the destitute that could not serve in the army or public service), in both their Republic and Empire, up until the Caeser (Constantinian I think) refused to hand real power back to the Senate and became an autocrat (around 390AD I think).
The money then got siphoned from public works and welfare into an ever expanding army, slavelabour dried up as people weren't willing to stand for it under Christianity (now the sate religion), and the empire eventually collapsed due to internal apathy and infighting...

Not that that sounds like the US at the moment or anything...
Seriously though... Every empire has its time as it can't keep up with changing social, political and economic movements.
The Roman Empire is the perfect example that one country simply cannot control world events, economies and societies to suit itself and its own citizens.
 
All I can speak for is my state. But here the poor people have as good as healthcare as I do and I have insurance. They go to the same doctor I do and recieve 100% health and dental.

I don't need goverment healthcare. Anyone making a decent living doesn't need free healthcare. Why should Obama or any other liberal stuff government healthcare down my throat. I don't want it...I will pay for my own. Stay out of my medical records. Thanks but no thanks.
 
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