The Truth About Plastic Bags

charlesmartel said:
The rationale for the plastic bag bans in the US is that the bags become litter in large numbers and that is clearly not the case. Maybe in Europe but not in the US.
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The US certainly isn't the biggest culprit, far from it. China uses something like 3 billion bags a day. Europe even less so because plastic bags have been legislated for a few years now. They aren't banned though. You can still get plastic at the grocery stores, you just pay for them, like 2 or 3 cents per bag. That being said, for all the reasons above, I don't know why anyone would want to use plastic over the vastly superior reusable bags.

charlesmartel said:
There's nothing wrong with plastic bags.
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Keep telling yourself that.

charlesmartel said:
They're better for the environment than paper bags.
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They're both shit. They both consume a massive amount of resources in the manufacturing process. They both don't belong in landfills or our waterways and oceans. That's why we should be using reusable bags.

Let me ask you this. Why wouldn't you want to use a vastly superior method for carrying groceries knowing that in doing so you're helping the environment?
 


Why do you keep comparing them to paper bags? Of course plastic bags are better than paper ones, but that wasn't the argument, it was vs canvas/synthetic fibres/strong recycled plastic/jute bags.
 
Fatbat said:
Let me ask you this. Why wouldn't you want to use a vastly superior method for carrying groceries knowing that in doing so you're helping the environment?
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If everyone thought reusable bags were vastly superior, then everyone would use them.

Plastic bags are convenient. You don't have to carry a reusable bag with you or in your car. You get a nice plastic bag from the grocery store. It's clean and you don't have to remember if you washed your reusable bag or whether there's e. coli in it.

Plus, a lot of people, like myself, use them more than once. When I get home, I use the bags as a trash can liner. Humans create waste. It will never go away. What next? Reusable toilet paper?

I don't have a problem with you loving reusable bags. Just don't FORCE me to do the same. If your argument is powerful enough, people will use them VOLUNTARILY.
 
-joe- said:
Why do you keep comparing them to paper bags? Of course plastic bags are better than paper ones, but that wasn't the argument, it was vs canvas/synthetic fibres/strong recycled plastic/jute bags.
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The reason is because while plastic bags are being banned, you can still get paper bags from the grocery store. However, the laws mandate that the grocery store charge you 10 cents for each paper bag.

So, plastic bags are banned but paper ones are OK as long as you pay the government mandated tax. I'm referring to the US and specifically CA.
 
charlesmartel said:
The reason is because while plastic bags are being banned, you can still get paper bags from the grocery store. However, the laws mandate that the grocery store charge you 10 cents for each paper bag.

So, plastic bags are banned but paper ones are OK as long as you pay the government mandated tax. I'm referring to the US and specifically CA.
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those laws are local ordinances I beleive that vary from state to state (or maybe even county) but no charge for paper here. also what about whole foods that only uses paper?
 
charlesmartel said:
If everyone thought reusable bags they were vastly superior, then everyone would use them.
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People are stupid. They don't see benefits in change unless they are shown, sometimes dragged into that change. If you haven't tried something, then you have no idea if an alternative is superior. It sounds to me like you haven't even attempted to try, you're just being suborn.

charlesmartel said:
Plastic bags are convenient. You don't have to carry a reusable bag with you or in your car. You get a nice plastic bag from the grocery store. It's clean and you don't have to remember if you washed your reusable bag or whether there's e. coli in it.
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All I hear is, "I ain't got time for that!". The e. coli thing is only a problem if you don't wash your you food and prepare it properly.

charlesmartel said:
Plus, a lot of people, like myself, use them more than once. When I get home, I use the bags as a trash can liner. Humans create waste. It will never go away. What next? Reusable toilet paper?
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I have no problem using them as bin liners, though I find they don't fit particularly well, falling down inside the bins, and they tend to leak. Humans do create a lot of waste, the point is, we can create much less waste. The toilet paper straw man makes you just sound like an idiot.

charlesmartel said:
I don't have a problem with you loving reusable bags. Just don't FORCE me to do the same. If your argument is powerful enough, people will use them VOLUNTARILY.
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Lots of people have been using them voluntarily.
 
I don't really like plastic bags. I don't know why, but there's just no need for this many. They love them here, so I have probably 1200 plastic bags sitting on top of my kitchen cupboards. That's about two large black garbage bags full. What am I supposed to do this all these? I use them in my garbage cans, and while weeding and stuff, but they're still piling up. I don't want to just throw them away.

I try to minimize my use, but am not too worried about it either. For example, when going for my weekly grocery shopping trip, I'll take a duffel bag with me, and just get the cashier to fill that instead. Works good, because then I just have one duffel bag to throw over my shoulder, versus packing two handfuls of plastic bags around.

And while I'm here:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W33HRc1A6c"]George Carlin - Saving the Planet - YouTube[/ame]
 
I was a hater of the plastic bag ban in my city at first to. I also hate grocery shopping enough as it is. Then I discovered the awesomeness of backpack shopping. With the bags banned they can't stop ya from wearing a backpack but if an employee sees you walk in with a backpack they call a code thinking you might be a shop lifter and an employee will follow you around and keep asking you if you need help. Just say hell yeah and give them your shopping list like a boss. They figure out in the first 30 seconds youre not a theif but have to follow you until you leave anyways. They know exactly where everything is at and all the good deals. It's like a personal shopper. In and out in 10 minutes! It's the greatest thing ever.
 
TIL charlesmartel hates freedom.

Just kidding, it's the people who want to legislate.

The reusable bags are good though.
 
Ive been traveling the sea a lot lately. I never ever see plastic bags. Plastic bottles are a huge fucking problem though. Every island I explore has plastic bottles all over the place.
 
Fatbat said:
Do they not have recycling there?
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Yes and no. No blue box program or anything, but loads of poor people, and they seem to do the job. They'll go through the garbage cans on the street for empty bottles and cardboard, and make sure it gets to the recycling plant.

They love me, as I usually have lots of empties saved up for them when they come around, all nicely organized. :)

They don't screw around with plastic bags though. I'll probably just start handing them out to all the small mom & pop stores around, instead of them buying new bags. That's what I used to do with my old next door neighbor.
 
I've tried using a reusable bag. Don't like the experience. I much prefer a plastic bag. There are 3 reasons, none of which are important to this discussion.

The salient point is that I should be able to choose. If you wish to take away my ability to choose, you are a thug. Own it. You are in good company, for most people are like you.

Here is a possible solution (admittedly, it is one most would balk at): privatize everything. Let property owners control whether plastic bags are discarded on their property, and how much to charge for the privilege.
 
Fatbat said:
^^ Sorry you're a bunch of dimwitted ignorant rednecks that can't see the bigger picture. Continue fucking the world in the ass.

They are so much better that I wouldn't ever want to go back to old school plastic again. Think of it as improving your life, society and our environment, and less about encroaching on your freedoms.
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Here's the big picture:

When you "regulate" what people are allowed to do you are implying the threat of violence. To enforce it, you must police it. So what happens if I get caught with a plastic bag (or any inanimate object that isn't state approved)?

Do I have to pay a fine? If so how much, and who benefits? What if I refuse to pay? Do I deserve to be locked up in a cage? What happens if I don't want to cooperate in my own kidnapping?

Do I deserve to be tazed, have guns pointed at my face, maybe shot or shipped away to a prison camp to be tortured and ass raped because of a stupid plastic bag when I've done nothing to hurt anyone else?

Seems extreme, right? Well people are stopped, searched, have their doors kicked in and guns pointed at their faces every day just because they're "suspected" of possessing an inanimate object that their overlords don't approve of - like a plant that grows naturally in the ground - and if they are in possession their life is ruined and they're hauled away at gunpoint to be locked up, even if they haven't hurt anyone.

Maybe you don't like plastic bags, fine. But maybe I don't have time to deal with the bag inspection department. Maybe the bag compliance licensing fees and mandatory forms force me out of business, because I don't have the resources required to comply.

Maybe I decide that I don't like how some people do graphic design work. So I vote for laws that require all designers to pay for 8 years of state approved graphic design training before they're allowed to be licensed or work. And I don't like certain fonts or color combinations, so I'm going to write up 100,000 pages of regulations that you must adhere to. And I'm going to change it every few months, so that you're too busy staying up to date on regulations to do any real work or actually make money.

Now it's physically impossible for you to remain compliant if you want to make any money. And you have to eat. So I'll just sit back and wait for you to break some arbitrary rule and fine you out of business - or throw you in a cage if you can't pay.

Man, that'd be a dick move wouldn't it?

Running a business is tough enough without me pointing a gun at you and telling you what you can and can't do. But that's exactly what you're doing to other people when you vote for arbitrary laws and regulations.

You know who the largest polluter in the world is? The U.S. Government. An entire organization built on the belief system that it's okay to force peaceful people to live the way that others say they should under the threat of violence. It's pretty ironic that people think they can use the force of the state to protect the environment - when they do more damage by far than anyone else.

You want to save the environment? Live and let live. Don't hurt, kill or steal. The belief system that it's okay to use violence to force people who haven't harmed anyone else to live the way you think they should live is MUCH more dangerous to the environment - and humanity - than a plastic bag.

What do you think has caused more harm to more people, marijuana or the violence used to enforce the regulations imposed on it by the state? It's an easy answer, and the same logic applies cocaine and plastic bags.
 
scottspfd82 said:
When you "regulate" what people are allowed to do you are implying the threat of violence.
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On a broader note... incentives and disincentives.

Here is a conundrum: we intuitively understand what motivates human action on a general basis (self-interest. A man who wishes to avoid death and injury is unlikely to knowingly walk in front of traffic.). We can also deduce - through intuition, reflection, or trial and error - what motivates specific behaviors in countless circumstances.

We know how to persuade our children to be silent in a movie theater.

We know how to convince prospects to purchase our wares.

We know how to get someone to like us, how to get another to do our bidding, and how to discourage the dog from pooping inside the house.

Yet, when it comes to masters - choosing them, following their orders, and supporting them - we lose our powers of intuition and deduction. We seem unable to fathom that our masters' actions are also driven by incentives. Those incentives may be unknown, but one can surely agree that expecting them to line up perfectly with our own motivations is optimistic.

Worse, when we are confronted with the immorality and intellectual inconsistency inherent in choosing, following, and supporting masters that we have chosen for others, we laugh it off. We even ridicule those who confront us.

It is a mystery. Were I an alien, I would turn the ship around and high-tail it outta here.
 
Veritas said:
We will have to join the state run insurance man, no choice, unless Guerilla does something about it :pimp:
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These days Guerilla is more likely to be trying to figure out how he can be the guy that profits from you being forced to buy insurance.
 
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