Torture Works - Now Shut The Fuck Up
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For those that say it doesn't work...from what background do you have that gives you expert advise on the subject? Being a housewife, Internet Marketer, grocery store clerk and so on means you know shit about it.
Unfortunately only another "9-11" will wake the liberals up once again....just like it did for a few years after the first one. So we dunk a few fools in some water and put a catipillar in their cells. If it saved one American it was worth it.
I can't stand all these MSNBC sheeple acting like they know anything about so called "tourture". most don't know their ass from a hole in the ground. You think America just started using these techniques? I hate to break it to you Keith Oberman rejects but we have been using your so called tourture techiques since the birth of our country and so has every other nation on earth.
Unfortunately only another "9-11" will wake the liberals up once again....just like it did for a few years after the first one. So we dunk a few fools in some water and put a catipillar in their cells. If it saved one American it was worth it.
I can't stand all these MSNBC sheeple acting like they know anything about so called "tourture". most don't know their ass from a hole in the ground. You think America just started using these techniques? I hate to break it to you Keith Oberman rejects but we have been using your so called tourture techiques since the birth of our country and so has every other nation on earth.
HarveyJ
He is - THE CACTUS!
This is the problem though.
What if you, or someone you know, is taken as a person of interest thanks to something as simple as an administrative error? They happen all the time, because intelligence agencies are, for the most part, analysis and administrative work done by people who are every bit as human as you or I, and just as prone to making mistakes and typos.
Ever seen Brazil?
Here's the [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUzn8tobguk]intro[/ame], followed by it's [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIDggzJ1mWc]consequence[/ame] (sorry, couldn't find the second in English)
Seeing as you can't prove the negative of not knowing about terrorist activity, they'll torture you, or the person you know, even though they don't know anything.
There are two problems with this, not including the inevitable legal suit and/or civil rights issues:
1) An innocent person has just been tortured. It's not even a zero-gain thing here. It's actually a loss, because time and resources used on them would have been more effectively used elsewhere
2) That person is going to say anything and everything to make the torture stop, giving a lot of information that is outright false, in the hopes that the treatment will end. Those leads will then be chased up, once again wasting time and resources better spent elsewhere.
The "They started it" argument is possibly the weakest ever for this. There is a moral highground that needs to be taken, or you literally are as bad as your enemies, and justify everything they say to their own people about you.
LotzofZeroes: Actually, it does. If you're going to keep calling it a "war" on terror, than they're clearly POthatW. Should have called it some better sounding bullshit like Global Defence Initiative. It's only that no one's going to call the US out on it because it's pretty much everyone's largest trading partner.
It might work sometimes but that doesn't make it acceptable.
How many innocent people are tortured countless times to get a snippet of info from the one guy who might know... or might just tell em what they want to hear?
If they could torture us all, or monitor our thoughts (more 1984 shit to come?) it would work - stop terrorism and other crimes (maybe shit that actually kills significant amounts of people), but would it be right?
Aside from whether it works or not and the civil liberties shit, it's hypocritical to criticise the seemingly barbaric or outdated practises of other countries or cultures but yet condone torture if it benefits us (or a few of us anyway).
How many innocent people are tortured countless times to get a snippet of info from the one guy who might know... or might just tell em what they want to hear?
If they could torture us all, or monitor our thoughts (more 1984 shit to come?) it would work - stop terrorism and other crimes (maybe shit that actually kills significant amounts of people), but would it be right?
Aside from whether it works or not and the civil liberties shit, it's hypocritical to criticise the seemingly barbaric or outdated practises of other countries or cultures but yet condone torture if it benefits us (or a few of us anyway).
I think it should be allowed as an interrogation technique in very special cercumstances, like when its believed there's going to be terrorist attack somewhere. Other then that I don't think it should be implemented.
By the way, now that Obama released ALL of our techniques to the media, we've shown the enemy our entire playbook. They have nothing to be worried about and we'll never get another piece of information out of them. I guarantee you there'll be another attack in the next 4 years.
And I have one, BIG question for all of you pussy-libs:
If what we're doing is torture, what is this?
We waterboard.
Our enemy drills hands, severs limbs, removes eyes, drags people behind cars...They support blowtorches to the skin, electrocution, breaking arms, whipping, clothes iron to the skin, and crush heads in vices.
When we capture these monsters, we put them up with 3 meals a day with a Koran and prayer rugs. The worst they have to suffer, which only happened to THREE PEOPLE EVER, is waterboarding.
The way Americans have become pussies makes me sick.
And I have one, BIG question for all of you pussy-libs:
If what we're doing is torture, what is this?
We waterboard.
Our enemy drills hands, severs limbs, removes eyes, drags people behind cars...They support blowtorches to the skin, electrocution, breaking arms, whipping, clothes iron to the skin, and crush heads in vices.
When we capture these monsters, we put them up with 3 meals a day with a Koran and prayer rugs. The worst they have to suffer, which only happened to THREE PEOPLE EVER, is waterboarding.
The way Americans have become pussies makes me sick.
Wouldn't surprise me, but for different reasons. We might even get to see Obama's true colours.
There is a book by one of the interrogators who managed to catch the head of Al Quaeda in Iraq, denying any positive effects of torture.
The guy is a US military interrogator and uses better techniques, such as building trust
Democracy Now! | US Interrogator in Iraq Says Torture Policy Has Led to Deaths of Thousands of American Soldiers
In another interview I had read (can't find it right now), he described how he got one of the Al Quaeda members to trust him.
That guy was a high up in the organisation and when he was not tortured, he decided to work with the US instead of against. He basically said "You guys have been described as monsters and worse. I expected to be tortured and killed. But you are not like this at all, everything I believed that made me fight you has been proven wrong. Let me help you."
Torture would not have worked on that guy. Good psychology and interrogation skills did.
::emp::
The guy is a US military interrogator and uses better techniques, such as building trust
Democracy Now! | US Interrogator in Iraq Says Torture Policy Has Led to Deaths of Thousands of American Soldiers
In another interview I had read (can't find it right now), he described how he got one of the Al Quaeda members to trust him.
That guy was a high up in the organisation and when he was not tortured, he decided to work with the US instead of against. He basically said "You guys have been described as monsters and worse. I expected to be tortured and killed. But you are not like this at all, everything I believed that made me fight you has been proven wrong. Let me help you."
Torture would not have worked on that guy. Good psychology and interrogation skills did.
::emp::
Personally, I think torture is barbarism, and I can't believe people are justifying it. If raping 11 year old girls could stop terrorism, would that be ok? If crushing the skull of a baby could stop terrorism would that be ok? If gassing a million people would stop terrorism, would that be ok?
Where does the slippery slope end?
When will humanity ever learn that violence only begets more violence?
Where does the slippery slope end?
When will humanity ever learn that violence only begets more violence?
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^that is the you don't know what you're talking about bar.
It appears below any statement you can't support or have no way of realistically knowing.
Please feel free to play again when you're not making shit up, or when you know all our tactics and techniques.
If torture is being used on an inocent person? IMHO this is the biggest reason for not using it.
Ok I decided my reply above wasn't constructive. So here we go.
And beyond that, nearly every tactic was already public. The only thing I heard that was new was slamming them into a wall with a neck brace on. And somehow I think they could've figured it out by now.
Beyond that, with Gitmo getting shut down, they would know all that soon anyways since the people would all be going back to their countries.
Plus these are tactics we aren't even using anymore, so releasing them doesn't exactly do damage.
It feels weird defending Obama again. I've been super critical of him lately, but all the nutballs in this thread remind me what the alternatives can be. Damn.
Edit: I'm sure there's a lot of (ex) hackers on WF. So to you guys I'd ask if you want this kind of behavior to become commonplace at a time when computer security is so quickly becoming a "national security" issue?
- Pros
- Torture May Work, and gets us sensitive information
- Cons
- Torture produces unreliable information(mixed in with the rare good), but all leads must be followed up on. This costs money, and time from very skilled people who likely could've found the info elsewhere in the time it takes them to check all the bad leads.
- As a civilized nation, we can't ask other countries to behave intelligently or civilly if we can't do it ourselves
- The safety is short lived due to all the bad will it creates around the world.
- If you don't like 'big government' torture without trial is as big as it gets
- Completely breaks the geneva conventions. If there was indeed a "war on terror" or "war in iraq" and most of these "prisoners" came from one of those two wars, it makes sense they would be "prisoners of war", yes?
- Weakens the likelihood that other countries will help our already spread-thin resources. Especially when other country's citizens are there.
- Innocent people getting tortured is completely unacceptable.
And beyond that, nearly every tactic was already public. The only thing I heard that was new was slamming them into a wall with a neck brace on. And somehow I think they could've figured it out by now.
Beyond that, with Gitmo getting shut down, they would know all that soon anyways since the people would all be going back to their countries.
Plus these are tactics we aren't even using anymore, so releasing them doesn't exactly do damage.
It feels weird defending Obama again. I've been super critical of him lately, but all the nutballs in this thread remind me what the alternatives can be. Damn.
Edit: I'm sure there's a lot of (ex) hackers on WF. So to you guys I'd ask if you want this kind of behavior to become commonplace at a time when computer security is so quickly becoming a "national security" issue?
The real tourture was watching American moms, dads, sisters and brothers jumping out of the world trade center and falling to their death.
Also, using trust building techniques are sometimes a useful way to get information. One problem is that you need a fairly extended amount of time for this to work. If you need the information fast and you believe the bad guy to have time sensitive info, then trust building is useless.
Also, using trust building techniques are sometimes a useful way to get information. One problem is that you need a fairly extended amount of time for this to work. If you need the information fast and you believe the bad guy to have time sensitive info, then trust building is useless.
Are the people defending torture actually saying that we should trust the main stream media quoting hearsay evidence from a governmental espionage organization (CIA)?
And that the government agency is reporting on an illegal act in which they planned, involved with, and responsible for?
What exactly do you expect them to say? The CIA admitted 5 years of torturing hundreds of people has been totally useless except for creating PTSD for American troops and agents performing it and killing and maiming an unknown amount of people living in their own country? And we (CNN,FOX, ABC, etc. ) have been sitting on out hands, grandstanding, and saying we have to get tough because it seems that only those other people must have done this and anyone even living in a country next to a terrorist needs to be raped, beaten and killed.
Wasn't all the airport security supposed to stop any plans for destruction?
Does that guy look like a mastermind for anything? I bet he has problems deciding what to eat for lunch.
This is complete bullshit and worse than the Vietnamese ever did to us. We are fucking Nazis, Khmer Rouge, and Russsian Gulag operators in nice uniforms and with no real goal in torturing people and this is a completely useless war(s). Remember this is recent. We don't know what has really happened in those camps, it is probably much worse.
And that the government agency is reporting on an illegal act in which they planned, involved with, and responsible for?
What exactly do you expect them to say? The CIA admitted 5 years of torturing hundreds of people has been totally useless except for creating PTSD for American troops and agents performing it and killing and maiming an unknown amount of people living in their own country? And we (CNN,FOX, ABC, etc. ) have been sitting on out hands, grandstanding, and saying we have to get tough because it seems that only those other people must have done this and anyone even living in a country next to a terrorist needs to be raped, beaten and killed.
Wasn't all the airport security supposed to stop any plans for destruction?
Does that guy look like a mastermind for anything? I bet he has problems deciding what to eat for lunch.
This is complete bullshit and worse than the Vietnamese ever did to us. We are fucking Nazis, Khmer Rouge, and Russsian Gulag operators in nice uniforms and with no real goal in torturing people and this is a completely useless war(s). Remember this is recent. We don't know what has really happened in those camps, it is probably much worse.
the only thing worse than prophecy, is self-fulfilling prophecy.
as an aside when I heard cheney say something to that end, it wasn't much of a stretch to perceive it as a threat.
anyway.
never ceases to amaze. in the company of marketers, some still can't see through the smokescreen.
our business does go deeper than diet fads and other assorted uselessities, ladies and gents.
the idea that torture works, is profitable.
the idea that we need to harm another so we won't be harmed, is profitable.
torture pays. not just to cut a check to all the jack bauers of the world. not just to increase the budget of those kooky cats in langley brainstorming the Next Big Thing in the enhanced interrogation vertical.
it's profitable, because it's a self sustaining market.
truth:
forensic evidence and rational inquiry aside, what dem terrorists did in NYC resulted in more violence.
and you're paying for it, to the tune to about $2,000,000,000 a week.
know what you're paying for?
you're paying for an idea.
you're paying for the idea fed to us by blatantly, unabashedly biased news sources that tell us that terrorism is the most pressing problem facing humanity today -- and for good reason.
terrorism has killed thousands of people worldwide.
terrorism has killed thousands of people here in the US.
you’re constantly reminded of the threat of terrorism to humanity, and the need for your support through taxes to combat it.
and now you've been told, sold, and reminded that you need to support pro-torture legislation to fight terrorism.
because terrorism kills a lot of people. right?
have you stopped to ask someone how many?
I’m citing the bush administration’s report and patterns of global terrorism below:
in ten years, 23,482 people died from acts of terrorism around the world.
not just here. everywhere.
however, in just one day — yesterday — acts of poverty have been the cause of death of more men, women, and children than all the acts of terrorism in the last ten years combined.
let that sink in.
hunger, thirst, and disease continue to kill more people than bombs or bullets ever have — or likely ever will.
that’s not to say terrorism isn’t a deadly, vile threat to humanity also.
because it is. it’s a horrible thing.
but green lighting more horrible things in response to a relatively insignificant horrible thing, is horrible.
and counterproductive.
and damn profitable.
global military spending, much of which is now used either directly or indirectly to fight the global war on terror, topped $1.2 trillion in 2007.
the US spent more than half, about $630 billion.
all of these funds come out of your pocket, through taxes.
global humanitarian aid to impoverished people amounts to about $11 billion.
most of these funds come out of your pocket too, through direct contribution.
to break it down, with rough figures:
yet somehow we justify the allocation of more than 50 times the amount spent on humanitarian aid to military projects to fight this war, on terrorism.
how?
damn good marketing, that's how.
and a heckuva lot of ya'll bought into it -- hook, line, and rebill.
but let's disregard some impoverished kids dying slow, excruciatingly painful deaths due to disease and malnutrition for a minute.
what do other intelligence agencies think about terrorism?
Top MI6 spy: Terrorism less serious than bird flu ? The Register
...less serious than bird flu.
more people die from lightning strikes than bird flu. seriously.
facts are clear. reality says terrorism is not a big deal.
can we stop doing heinous shit to people in the name of it already?
no?
oh. well. reality's overrated anyway.
and as I understand it this season of 24 is fucking amazing.
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