Romney to announce VP on Saturday

Or maybe, just maybe the majority of people aren't actually sheep...
... People aren't that stupid, and I'm quite certain do realize what's happening.
Perhaps you've never read any of the comments at places like Reddit or CNN.

Millions of morons a minute can't be that smart. :disgust:


But what would you like them to do? Bitch on internet forums? Maybe start throwing grenades at cop cars?
I'd fucking have them read some Economic theory. Once they see what the world is doing wrong, the majority would demand change.
 


What, did you think Ron himself was the only one allowed to use this chance to educate others?

Not sure what you mean.

My point is that Ron understands that the greatest chance we have is to reform the republican party and that this is a marathon.

You have to work within the framework of the system. The reality is that it's a two party system and our best chance is to take control of one of the two parties.
 
Or maybe, just maybe the majority of people aren't actually sheep, and realize what's going on, but also realize the same as you -- there's nothing substantial they can do about it.
When you see people singing national anthems, and turning out for national holidays, and protesting not getting enough welfare, or signing up in big numbers for the military, they don't have a clue what is wrong.

The good news for libertarians is that society moves as a group, and we're moving towards a libertarian future.

The bad news is that it's probably 200 years away.
 
Not sure what you mean.
I meant that my signature should only be taken as a rally to the pollbooths by those who would use pollbooths.

Dozens of times on WF alone I have advocated the opposite.

I support Honest Ron's educational campaign even more than I support his bid for presidency.


You have to work within the framework of the system. The reality is that it's a two party system and our best chance is to take control of one of the two parties.
You derail right here though.

The system is set up to never allow this to happen. As the hardcore Paul supporters can all tell you right now in the finest of details, the closer you get to putting your people in place, the more the establishment will Cheat to keep the status quo.

Working within the framework of the system is best used like Ron uses it: An educational campaign. If you try to take power then not only do you face a huge establishment in control of the police, courts and even the army, who want to stop you cold, but then you risk becoming corrupted yourself, because power simply corrupts.

I'm leaning towards Seasteads myself now to see freedom within our lifetime. Perhaps something like the free state project could get popular one day though and make a real change locally... If uncle sam doesn't treat them like Lincoln did the south...
 
You have to work within the framework of the system.
No, you don't. That's a myth which traps people into perpetually doing the same failed shit over and over again.

The reality is that it's a two party system and our best chance is to take control of one of the two parties.
You have absolutely zero chance of doing that. It has never, ever happened, and it never, ever will.

The purpose of a two party system is to create pillars to support a singular platform of statism. They are two wings on the same vulture.
 
This should be on everyone's reading list each time election year rolls around:

SS374.jpg


It's short, and moves fast. Find it here.
 
This should be on everyone's reading list each time election year rolls around:

SS374.jpg


It's short, and moves fast. Find it here.

Just as I thought. Not a solution in the book. Not a recipe of any sort for how the system of liberty will work. Just a tearing down.

Everything the author says is correct, but then what should be done?

While I am open to your ideas - how would it work. Every example I see produced does not outline how such a system would work. The real world practical flaws are everywhere. My concern is with the execution and application of the ideas, not the ideas themselves.

Self interest, lust for more power, and Evil behavior. Every system must address these yet I never see how you will deal with it in your proposed system.

I will once again say that the system in the US is 100% changeable from within. To say otherwise is to not recognize the system or how it works.

You want liberty? Then make change to eradicate 99% of the laws or is everyone too busy participating within the system and making money?

Who are each of you in that book?
 
Just as I thought. Not a solution in the book. Not a recipe of any sort for how the system of liberty will work. Just a tearing down.

Everything the author says is correct, but then what should be done?

While I am open to your ideas - how would it work. Every example I see produced does not outline how such a system would work. The real world practical flaws are everywhere. My concern is with the execution and application of the ideas, not the ideas themselves.
Have you even HEARD of Google?

Practical Anarchy.pdf

That's a great book by Stefan Molyneaux, and I just happened to re-read the part on external attacks from foriegn nations today. He's truly thought this it all out in depth.



I will once again say that the system in the US is 100% changeable from within. To say otherwise is to not recognize the system or how it works.
Then you are once again wrong.

I recognize that the Founders of this once-great nation built a Minarchy that was the very model of how small and compact a government could be.

...But after 150 years or so had bloated up into the largest, most evil empire on the planet. It's not the country they created AT ALL.

This is just what happens to governments. It has happened to EVERY government, in fact. They all go corrupt because you just can't avoid the fact that power corrupts, and corrupted men seek more power... That is a recipe for a doomed country every. single. time. Why is this time any different? Because YOU are here? Lulz...
 

Is this the best there is? These are all the same arguments I have seen here. I only made it to page 38 out of 140+, but I cannot read anymore it's childish.

He states that a country will only invade another country to take over as the new tax collector. Really? Ever heard of natural resources?

He claims Joe will not take over Bob's (names changed because I forget) farm in lieu of developing his own because "imagine if [Bob's] farm was staffed with ex-military fully armed and trained. Really? What military would that be? Some private militia developed through Anarchy? I think the CO of that militia may just take over Bob's farm himself and empower his workers (ex-soldiers) or more likely enslave some people to work the farm for them.

Does anyone think things through?

The masses need leadership and guidance. There is no conceivable situation where the "masses" (and hopefully everyone understands what I mean by this) will be able to protect themselves.

He says that to be part of a democracy is to rule for the benefit of the majority when the US was specifically designed not only as a republic, but also to never allow the majority to crush the minority. That is a very important point.

The author states that we can pay to build a military and he has this ridiculous example of independent audits with a reward to be awarded if anything is found to be "awry". Yeah, that will work..... at least until the private military is large enough to abolish the audit agency. He claims the economic incentive will not be there - he assumes that each private citizen will have full knowledge of every situation.

This is very important to my Anarchist friends. We live in a very complex society. There is no single person that can live their lives pursuing due diligence on every minute decision. You will say they can outsource it, but to whom? More due diligence. In this complex world each individual wil be pursuing passionately there chosen productive activity but they will be bogged down in due diligence. So much so that the due diligence organizations themselves will need due diligence organizations and so on and so on - what happens when they decide to collaborate and manipulate on behalf of those they are watching?

On and on and on - the implementation of Anarchy is not possible.

The little chart that keeps appearing ITT is not correct. People will move to moderate Libertarianism and then decide to settle somewhere short of it - this are all ideas I explored when I was young, as most of you are still.
 
Is this the best there is? These are all the same arguments I have seen here. I only made it to page 38 out of 140+, but I cannot read anymore it's childish.
So you demand answers after admitting you won't read the subject matter. Typical.

I do not know if it is the best there is, I doubt it in fact... It's just the one addressing this subject that I have read. Check out the library at Mises.org for more.


He states that a country will only invade another country to take over as the new tax collector. Really? Ever heard of natural resources?
He did not use the word Only. In fact that was like the second or third example in a long string of examples, the last one being where some other country irrationally wanted to barge in and burn all our books...

Since he didn't address natural resources directly, I'll fill in the blank for you: If they wanted Jimmy Bob's gold mine in the middle of an anarchy-filled land, then at the very least they'd have to conquer and hold the Mine itself and the supply line into and back from the mine to their territory.

This may sound easy to you, but as he says over and over, they don't have to just defeat 1 army on 1 day. For them to hold that mine and supply line would mean that they have to constantly keep guard along the whole route for Guerrilla forces trying to sabotage/stop/otherwise make it not worth their while.

Japan didn't invade the mainland US because they didn't want to face the guns in the hands of the rural population... And that was back in 1940's america when we didn't have an automatic weapon in every single home.

Guerrilla warfare. It's what scares off countries more than anything else.


He claims Joe will not take over Bob's (names changed because I forget) farm in lieu of developing his own because "imagine if [Bob's] farm was staffed with ex-military fully armed and trained. Really? What military would that be? Some private militia developed through Anarchy? I think the CO of that militia may just take over Bob's farm himself and empower his workers (ex-soldiers) or more likely enslave some people to work the farm for them.
He's not talking about a militia at all. You're still thinking of the land as having a government on it. It won't.

I guess this part is hard for some people to conceive. It's about distributing things like resources and guns completely. Under a government, (and therefore the only way you've ever seen it) the distribution of guns is at the front line or the border or at least at the army base... But it's clumped together where it can do the most damage to a similar, opposing army.

Under anarchy, the resistance is every. single. household. You might think "Sure, a whole army against a single household? It'll be a slaughter." -And it would be for the unfortunate households near the attacker's border, for sure.

But think about how many households there are! Each one is going to have some or all family members with a gun hiding behind a tree and wear down the enemy a little bit more. Over the time it takes to go attack each individual household in such a place, their army is TOAST. They'll be spread way to thin and it'll take years to travel over all that land at all.


The masses need leadership and guidance. There is no conceivable situation where the "masses" (and hopefully everyone understands what I mean by this) will be able to protect themselves.
The stupid shits on welfare today? Sure. They do need guidance.

-But I'm not in the business of giving those fools what they want.

Anarchy gives everyone who can handle it some ACTUAL freedom. I'm sorry that concept scares you so. Just remember, it's only so scary because every government that ever existed tried very hard to make it seem that way. You're thinking with millenia of Propaganda about this in your head.



The author states that we can pay to build a military and he has this ridiculous example of independent audits with a reward to be awarded if anything is found to be "awry". Yeah, that will work..... at least until the private military is large enough to abolish the audit agency. He claims the economic incentive will not be there - he assumes that each private citizen will have full knowledge of every situation.
Sounds to me like you are the one making the assumptions. Have patience.


We live in a very complex society. There is no single person that can live their lives pursuing due diligence on every minute decision. You will say they can outsource it, but to whom? More due diligence. In this complex world each individual wil be pursuing passionately there chosen productive activity but they will be bogged down in due diligence. So much so that the due diligence organizations themselves will need due diligence organizations and so on and so on - what happens when they decide to collaborate and manipulate on behalf of those they are watching?
It's not that bad man! Here, let me ease your panic a bit...

First of all, have you ever read Consumer Reports? Angies list? Any other consumer ratings magazine or website? Those ALREADY DO the due diligence you're afraid of, and we aren't even living in an anarchy here. Imagine that. It is very easy to imagine that there will be more and more useful ones made for such a world. They'll be competing against each other in the free market, and that is the key that will keep them from "conspiring" with each other to lie to or scheme customers.

Secondly, at least now that we live in the computer age, Micro-tasking is getting really easy. So what if you have to make 50 different payments to fifty different services each and every month? You don't have to INITIATE them all at the same time, you'd only put one at a time in your auto-billpay at your bank's website when you need it.

Doing due diligence on the fly is getting easy as pie too. My android phone is all I need to know if I'm getting the best price for a product when I see it in the store. It seems like every time I buy something bigger than the milk in person, I've got my phone out reading an amazon review or something about it before I purchase.

This is by no means a concerning problem to the whole model of anarchy. I'm not sure it was so a century ago, either.


On and on and on - the implementation of Anarchy is not possible.

Did you know that the Nords (Especially Svalbard) lived in a complete anarchy for hundreds of years? Are you saying you can't handle doing something that they lived for centuries?



The little chart that keeps appearing ITT is not correct. People will move to moderate Libertarianism and then decide to settle somewhere short of it - this are all ideas I explored when I was young, as most of you are still.
You mean people who have no imagination or are still brainwashed by the state? Yeah, no argument there.

The chart represents how people naturally get to anarchy. It's the way all of us on here who claim to be anarchists got there, I'm pretty sure. The author nor I make any claims that it isn't possible to stray off course. In your case it would seem to me because there is a mental image in your head of how land is settled and distributed that is conflicting with an unorganized land in anarchy.

The state tried very hard to put that image in your head. Looks like they did quite a good job.

Now use reason to remove it.
 
Luke, can I ask you a simple question? I'm honestly curious. Under an anarchist system, how would you expect your day-to-day life to change? How would living in anarchy affect you personally, and your day-to-day life as you live it now?

And for this question, let's forget about taxes. Things like defense from foreign forces, roads, water treatment, fire dept (especially forest fires), and so on are all going to have to be paid for somehow. Instead of taxes, you'll be paying the 80+ bills a month, so let's say it still works out to 35% of your income either way.

Excluding the taxes debate, how would your personal day-to-day life change? What would you to differently in comparison to what you do now? Do you expect prices of various goods to go down, due to greater efficiency? Do you expect new technologies to spring up everywhere? Or what?
 
lmao@the fruit cake that said 'AM' was good during the bush years. Oh do ou mean the great diet pill era. Fuck outta here.

It's called marketing for a reason. A true marketer can sell shit in a depression


lrn2copywrite
 
Instead of taxes, you'll be paying the 80+ bills a month, so let's say it still works out to 35% of your income either way.

That's not true, those who want to save more of their money would be able to keep more of their money by choosing not to use certain services. For example, if you have no children you wouldn't be paying a public education system; or if you had children but wanted to home school, you wouldn't pay pubed either.. You wouldn't have to pay for others healthcare, food (welfare), etc.. A person who rarely travels wouldn't be forced to pay for roads, the list goes on.

Do you expect prices of various goods to go down, due to greater efficiency? Do you expect new technologies to spring up everywhere? Or what?

I'd expect greater efficiency all around under a free market. When competition is allowed to occur, there's only positives for consumers.
 
Luke, can I ask you a simple question?
Simply eh? My lily-white ass.



I'm honestly curious. Under an anarchist system, how would you expect your day-to-day life to change? How would living in anarchy affect you personally, and your day-to-day life as you live it now?
Of course that depends on the level of development of society as a whole... The first settlers of the old west were pretty much living in anarchy but had no infrastructure nor technology nor electricity... I wouldn't go back to those times if I could help it.

But if say, the USA was never made into a government and we have enjoyed anarchy all these years, then clearly I'd be in heaven comparred to the shit we have now. Today's life would seem like the old west does to you now in that circumstance.


And for this question, let's forget about taxes. Things like defense from foreign forces, roads, water treatment, fire dept (especially forest fires), and so on are all going to have to be paid for somehow. Instead of taxes, you'll be paying the 80+ bills a month, so let's say it still works out to 35% of your income either way.
Here's where you're just not getting the big picture at all.

Today my earnings go about 60% towards taxes at the state and federal (mostly federal) levels. 35% is income tax, and the rest is towards a nearly infinite slew of things like property tax, wheel tax, licensing, sales tax, capital gains, etc... So I'm certainly not keeping as much as I earn now.

Not only was dreamache right about about choosing to pay the services that you personally want, (meaning I don't need to pay for the soldiers doing evil all over the globe right now or for minorities to have a better chance than I do getting a job) but then there is this thing called Bureaucracy which makes every dollar I send to the federal government turn into 6 cents that they can use in any meaningful way.

Between government waste, the cost of government offices and staff, and the obvious theft in the system that is just the price of doing business in DC, taxpayer money is about 6% effective... Which is why we started borrowing more money from China to make ends meet than we collect from our citizens here.

So the bottom line here is that under anarchy, in an equally-developed society, the same amount of money will buy FAR FAR FAR more of the services you have come to expect will take up most of your paycheck.

I haven't seen any great estimations of that number, but an off-the-cuff calculation would suggest that under anarchy I can pay directly for things like roads and defense and everything else _I WANT_ with only 4% of my income instead of 60%.


Excluding the taxes debate, how would your personal day-to-day life change? What would you to differently in comparison to what you do now? Do you expect prices of various goods to go down, due to greater efficiency? Do you expect new technologies to spring up everywhere? Or what?
The price of various goods would equalize out in the free market to what is NATURAL.

You socialists don't care much about natural; you're just looking for fairness, and the idea of natural selection makes you nervous because you feel like there is a shark sneaking up behind you and will eat you.

The good news is though that you're on dry land and our species is the top of the food chain here. There is no need to think like that anymore! (Except while swimming in the ocean.)

Free markets are no more and no less than natural selection of the business world. It is natural for the fittest products to gain the most popularity as it is natural for the fittest creatures to rise to the top of their herds.

When you don't respect that, crazy shit happens. Food chains collapse, species go extinct, and consumers wind up paying massive amounts for products they don't even like.

Fairness isn't everything. In fact in the world we live in, it has been used to hurt us more than help us by far.
 
Ever thought about how much more productive human society would be if all of the bureaucrats and soldiers and defense industries were making goods and developing solutions to benefit humanity?

Can you say flying cars?

Not only do you have all of these government workers doing inherently useless work, but they force us to pay for them to do it, basically incurring a double penalty to aggregate economic growth.
 
Ever thought about how much more productive human society would be if all of the bureaucrats and soldiers and defense industries were making goods and developing solutions to benefit humanity?

In this fantasy, how do you see society keeping the bureaucrats' corruption in check, prolonging the production of goods and solutions that benefit humanity?
 
In this fantasy, how do you see society keeping the bureaucrats' corruption in check, prolonging the production of goods and solutions that benefit humanity?
What bureaucrats?

I certainly wouldn't be hiring anyone for that position, would you?

Bureaucrats are a byproduct of government.
 
In this fantasy, how do you see society keeping the bureaucrats' corruption in check, prolonging the production of goods and solutions that benefit humanity?
There would be no bureaucrats. They would be private citizens.
 
Bureaucrats are a byproduct of government.

No, they are the administrative personnel that oversee the management of anything. They are necessary.

People that perform meaningful tasks tend to not like to keep track of things, and need people to prod them. Where would a business be without their accountants, managers, CEOs, etc.? The same is true for government personnel. Someone has to keep track of the affairs of state and watch where things go.

There would be no bureaucrats. They would be private citizens.

Private citizens managing anything is a bureaucratic function. Society can't exist without some party facilitating transactions and keeping records.