McCain is a cocksucker
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Then why was it cheaper before medicare, medicaid and HMOs?
Why was it cheaper when it was in the free market, Bayer sold Heroin in retail stores and Doctors made housecalls?
Don't tell me technology drove up the costs, because that's BS. Cell phones, computers, and numerous other tech goods continue to go down in cost, while improving.
Do you realize that if you socialize care, you will get wait lists and shortages because people will abuse a system they do not pay for? It's already happening with medicare. Charges are through the roof, because the claimants never see the bills.
Name one thing the government taxes for and does efficiently. Screw it, name two. Please tell us how those corrupt motherfuckers who are bankrupting the system, and totally bought and paid for by special interests are going to take more of our money and that will be good for us, based upon...???
You mean all of the bullshit they have created? Sorta like following up shooting yourself in the foot by shooting yourself in the head, isn't it?
Let's see, HMOs are evil. The government brought in HMOs. Medicare is full of waste, the government brought in medicare. Drugs are expensive, the FDA colludes with industry to control drug availability and prices. According to the video I posted, the government added 40% to the medicare entitlement (that cannot be paid for) with the prescription drug plan.
Do you really trust Congress and the FDA to manage healthcare? Did you watch the YouTube?
Of course back when we had charity hospitals that never turned anyone away, I read this silliness about how people were hurting, so the government gave us your $1,000 charges and now more government will get us right back to where we were?
Of course the max gets billed. You bill the max because someone else is footing the bill. There is no competition. Why? Government regulates the industry, and makes it exclusive to the people who bill.
Ask yourself, how can a hospital get away with charging $1,000 for aspirin if there is competition? How can it get away with it, if it is subject to the same economic forces that prevent you from making $1,000 an hour as a wage slave?
When did I say that people do not deserve it? My issue isn't the people who need help. It's the lazy people and politicians, who want to steal to pay for it. I've never said I do not want to help people, to give charitably.
I do resent people demanding that I owe them or someone else something, because I work, and save and sacrifice. I resent that they want me to pay for the massive foreign aid state, the warfare state, welfare, corporate welfare, etc along the way.
Don't be dumbed down. You want to punish your fellow hardworking and successful citizens for a problem the government has created and exacerbated to the benefit of their corporate and institutional buddies.
I always wonder why the socialized medicine advocates never advocate cutting government spending in a meaningful way. Why do we always have to tax more? Surely there are hundreds of billions in waste already, adding a national healthcare portfolio under the current system will only create opportunity for more waste and fraud, not less.
By what you speak it isn't the fact you are against these things. It is that you are against the government helping to regulate them.
How about the fact that we could have paid for years of the universal healthcare rather than going to war.
There are no waitlist or shortages in any other countries that offer. I have never heard of there being so. Find me one person from a country with universal healthcare that had to wait for something they needed.
If a system was implemented and the focus was more on preventing issues rather than if something catastrophic happens yes at first there would be a lot of people going to the doctors. Not because they are looking to use the system but because they could not get help before.
It seems to me that you have no faith in your government but love you country so much. It is like a double negative.'
I noticed half your post got cut out but when I went to quote it I got it all.
I watched the video and yes it is true. However with a system in place the government taking in interest in the amounts that are paid for the healthcare system it would bring the cost down.
America has the most expensive healthcare anywhere not because we have the best but because there is no regulation.
America has the most expensive healthcare anywhere not because we have the best but because there is no regulation.
But Socialism does work, it works all over the world. And since when is Canada a small nordic nation?
Please show me the studies that prove my life will suck more with universal health care.
Warren Buffet has called for a higher taxes on the rich and last time I checked he had no problem with business or making money.
What is the population of Canada? Do they have a higher standard of living or lower? What do they pay in taxes? Double?
Guess what? Canadians are adding private care because socialized care is failing to meet demand.
Please show me a country with 100 million or more people with socialized medicine. Obviously, I can't ask you to show me one already $100 trillion in debt as well, so you are catching a break.
Oh, Warren Buffet has called for higher taxes. Well I guess I should dump my pockets out. He's the second greatest authority after the Trump.
What are you talking about? It doesn't make any sense.
You see, that's the problem. There is a logic disconnect in your position.
In other areas without regulation, do prices rise or fall? Do cell phones get more expensive, or cheaper? Is webhosting, more expensive or cheaper? I'm desperately trying to think of more unregulated industries, specifically offline but I'm drawing blanks. Pretty much everything is regulated.
But anyway, how can you say healthcare is unregulated? It's fucking totally regulated. Drugs are regulated. Doctors are regulated. Insurance is regulated. Tort claims are regulated. Everything is fucking regulated.
I can't tell if you're fucking with me, or just not rational. The level of regulation is insane. Now the AMA wants to outlaw midwives, a practice that has been going on for 100s of years, so that everyone has to give birth in a corporate hospital, paying top dollar.
I gotta go smoke some crack or something. You're absolutely fucking with me.
Stocks don't always go up, but that's why you have a diversified portfolio. Regardless, even a very modest private account would make more in the long run than social security. And just because some people are "functionally retarded" doesn't mean those of us who aren't should suffer for their lack of intelligence. At the very least we should be able to opt-out of social security for our own private plan.
But do they all actually need it? No, most of them don't.
tweak50 said:
As someone else mentioned, the U.S. leads the world in charitable donations. Why should the government take the hard-earned money of the rich and give it to the poor? They shouldn't. I do, however, think the rich have a social responsibility of sorts to aid in things like poverty and hunger and whatnot. They do, but I believe it would be much more if the government stayed out of it. Think about it - I'm helping the poor already through a mandatory "donation" to welfare through taxation. I mean, not once have I gotten a thank you from someone in the checkout line with food stamps, despite the fact that my hard earned money may be helping them buy what they need. Moreover, many people who get welfare don't need it. Those who do need it, they should get it. But those who don't yet get it anyway, they should be out applying for jobs. Additionally, it doesn't matter if the rich get tax benefits by donating; if they do that's just beneficial to both parties.
Socialism, as a form of government, does not work. It can't. Take a look at Cuba.
Socialized medicine, while not as drastic as complete socialism, will still be a step backwards. In Canada not only are there shortages of doctors, long waiting lines and poor service, but many Canadian doctors are either moving to the U.S. or traveling to the U.S. for work.
Cuba is a communist country, not a socialist one.
How can you expect to be taken serious when you have a 3rd grade understanding of political systems?
I see you get your information from Fox news. Not only is Cuba not socialist, but the whole myth of "long lines" and "shortages of doctors" is complete utter bullshit. I personally know people that immigrated to the US from Canada and each one of them say that those statements are completely false.
The only reason the stock market goes up most of the time, is debasement of the currency, or inflation for the layman.
Take a look at the Eastern block countries. Take a look at China. Extreme socialism becomes communism or fascism (corporatism). That is what is happening in America. The government is used by corporations to rape the citizen of his wealth and liberty. The special interests drive government spending into the ground.
Communism is based on socialism. Just as fascism is based on capitalism. The root is socialism, capitalism, or what they call a mixed economy.
Since I regard socialism as evil, mixing it with capitalism doesn't make it good, just a little less evil, but still evil. Like those people who will vote for someone they know is a bad candidate, but to spite a worse one.
I have been living and working in Canada for a couple years now. The healthcare system is minimum care. Most Americans will not tolerate this, many Canadians are becoming unwilling to tolerate it as well.
Personal example, I know a wealthy man who cut his hand badly. So badly it required surgery to fix (tendons cut horizontally). I advised him to cross the border, and pay at a US hospital to be taken care of immediately. Instead, he went to a hospital in Canada (he is a Canadian), waited 2 hours to be seen and was sent home without surgery and told to come back the next day. This was a major hospital. The next day, he went and they sent him home again, only bandaged. Finally, late the second day, they had him in at midnight for surgery, but only after he waited 6 hours to get on an operating table.
I can guarantee you he will cross the border the next time he needs prompt service. I know other Canadians who regularly cross the border for tests, because the wait time to get tested, and then to get results is excessively long.
Hey, it's free. But it's not good. If you read the link I posted earlier, private care was outlawed, and they are changing that, because they acknowledge that bad government service or no service punishes the patient.
The bottom line is, if you watched the YouTube I posted, we're broke. So how will we pay for more free health care for people who already can't afford it? because people think the government will fix prices? As soon as you have price fixing, historically one of three things happens. You either get shortages, you lose quality, or both.
I'll never understand the math people think they are using talking about a system where 20% pay for 100% getting free care no matter how often or expensive it is, can be sustainable. It wasn't in the GDR or USSR. It wasn't in China, which is why they are slowly going the free market route.
Why are we talking about socialism? Socialism is the collective (i.e. public) ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods and services. Who wants that? I would like the government to be less involved in my life, not more, thank you. Now I don't have a problem with a sweeping health care reform but I don't see why we have to start talking changing our entire political structure just for health care. Why can't the much needed reform be the exception and not the rule?
When has the government not made small exceptions, and then driven a Mack truck through them over the next administrations?
The part of your post I bolded, means you probably have libertarian sympathies. I'm actually apolitical, I think the system is a series of false choices, but if people insist on voting then they should vote for something, not against something else (hope that makes sense).
I'm mostly trying to get people to think a little, to question. Frankly, we'll have the masters who are intended for us, even if they have to steal the election like the last two. Voting is really an exercise in futility. It doesn't change anything. Now impeaching Nixon, that got shit done.
I haven't been involved in the debate in this thread but I wanted to throw in my opinion on the socialism label. I believe that the art of debate is lost in our current society. Due to the excessive amounts of available news, blogs, and talking heads (of both conservative and liberal slants), the rational debater's voice is lost in all the noise. Anyone who wants to be heard above this noise must be the loudest. Not by volume, but by the extremism of the statements. The constant exposure to this extremism rubs off on the people consuming it, and their arguments mirror those they've heard from their favourite talking head.
So instead of discussing a liberal point, it's labeled as a socialist point. Instead of discussing a conservative point, it's labeled as a fascist point. The constant use of extreme labels and arguments by one side immediately cause the other side to use the same tactics. So instead of two sides debating and discussing things WITH each other, we've now got two sides yelling and arguing AT each other. Nothing gets resolved.
While it was still very rare in the past, I cannot remember the last time a conservative politician/talking head agreed with anything said by a liberal politician/talking head and vice versa. It seems that nowadays, everyone has to have a side. There always has to be a winner and a loser and never the middle ground shall be met.
You're right. Although there are times I am definitely guilty of sensationalism in my arguments.
Sometimes I just like to piss people off.:angel:
And I personally know Canadians who complain to me how they have to wait for 18 hours to see a Dr when they are sick.
Is that emergency room sick? At most places around here, unless you go to an emergency room, you have to make an appointment, which could end up being days before your able to see someone.
Essentially, communism is an extreme form of socialism. Can we not have a discussion without throwing insults?
tweak50 said:
No, I do not watch Fox news. I personally know and have talked to people who have reaffirmed the long lines, doctor shortages, and the fact that Canadian doctors travel to the U.S. for work. Just because those you talk to haven't experienced these problems doesn't mean the problems don't exist.
guerilla said:
I would agree that we're on the path to socialism/communism/fascism. However, I would disagree about how it's actually progressing that way. I don't believe that the corporations are using the government. It's simply the government sticking it's hand where it doesn't belong; increased regulation of business, increased taxation, increased welfare, increased intrusion on personal liberties, etc. We're well on our route towards a welfare/police state.
I, too, wonder how people can want more government involvement. The smaller the government the better. Big government creates more problems. If you make just one exception to the "rule" then you'll make another. Soon you'll have the government regulating every aspect of business and your personal life, which is right where we're headed.
Apolitical, as in politically apathetic? I would agree that, if you vote, you should vote for something and not against something. I don't believe in voting for the lesser of two evils - vote for "no" evil.
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