want proof of how FuckedUP Health care in the US is?

Mastermind said:
NEWSFLASH: The real problem isn't health care. The real problem is a culture of self inflicted disease.

Your idol Mr. Moore is a part of the problem not a part of the solution.
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genius.. where the hell did i say he was my idol? i hate Moore you dumbass
 


This forum is far less liberal than most internet sites because you have a lot of people who think they're rich and part of the elite because they make over 100k a yr. It's hilarious. That's the big joke on most repubs.. you've been tricked into thinking you might get rich in your lifetime so you support policies for rich people and corporations.

I've got liberal views on lots of things and conservative on others. I love the 2nd amendment. But in Healthcare I've been convinced we should move more towards socialized medicine.

All I need to know about the argument is that I can be retired, have 1 million dollars banked and then I could need a serious operation which may not be covered by insurance. That operation, or series of operations could wipe that fucking 1 mill out like it's nothing. Then your ass is at fucking Walmart at age 70 and eating fucking dog food. Sounds like fun. You just worked your whole life for nothing.

If you actually research health care in Canada, Britain, etc, you'll see that most republican healthcare myths are exactly that. Healthcare is great there - well far better than here at least.

We've got a seriously fucked up healthcare situation in this country but the religious-like "free market" propaganda in this country is so hardcore it doesn't matter. You'd put a gun to your head if the gov and advertising told you to.And you're pretty much doing just that.

All I know is that my whole agenda is to avoid becoming a fucking wage-slave at any time in my life. Everyone, everywhere is constantly trying to suck your money and life away from you - esp in this hardcore capitalistic country. And unless you have over 10 mill in assets you're actually better off with a more European/Canadian healthcare system. I don't expect to retire with the equiv of 10 mill. If shit isn't changed here before I retire I'll definitely be moving out of the country.

Honestly its the people who constantly shout out ideological horseshit that don't know what the fuck they're talking about. Like always idealizing the notion of the "Free Market" with little or no regulation. What a bunch of shit. We tried very little regulation in the early part of the country.. and most people in the US became fucking slaves to industry. Anytime you let pure capitalism run free with no government regulation then you simply get a corporate tyranny of the nation.

Then you got the ideological left, saying government should do almost everything. And if they're not careful.. you'll end up with a tyranny clusterfuck like Mao or Stalin. If the gov controls too much, then it's obviously too powerful.

It's called middle ground, douchbags. It's not ideological but it seems to work best to keep us out of fucking slavery. There are shitloads of great socialized programs and I think healthcare should be one of them because it's too important to be ran on by profit-only oriented organizations.

I wish there were this idealized 100% pure capitalistic country that so many repubs imagine where everything in it is privatized. Then we could look at them as an example of what could be. But there's prob a reason that country doesn't exist - because no one would actually want to fucking live there except the slave masters.
 
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WickedJoe said:
This forum is far less liberal than most internet sites because you have a lot of people who think they're rich and part of the elite because they make over 100k a yr. It's hilarious. That's the big joke on most repubs.. you've been tricked into thinking you might get rich in your lifetime so you support policies for rich people and corporations.

I've got liberal views on lots of things and conservative on others. I love the 2nd amendment. But in Healthcare I've been convinced we should move more towards socialized medicine.

All I need to know about the argument is that I can be retired, have 1 million dollars banked and then I could need a serious operation which may not be covered by insurance. That operation, or series of operations could wipe that fucking 1 mill out like it's nothing. Then your ass is at fucking Walmart at age 70 and eating fucking dog food. Sounds like fun. You just worked your whole life for nothing.

If you actually research health care in Canada, Britain, etc, you'll see that most republican healthcare myths are exactly that. Healthcare is great there - well far better than here at least.

We've got a seriously fucked up healthcare situation in this country but the religious-like "free market" propaganda in this country is so hardcore it doesn't matter. You'd put a gun to your head if the gov and advertising told you to.And you're pretty much doing just that.

All I know is that my whole agenda is to avoid becoming a fucking wage-slave at any time in my life. Everyone, everywhere is constantly trying to suck your money and life away from you - esp in this hardcore capitalistic country. And unless you have over 10 mill in assets you're actually better off with a more European/Canadian healthcare system. I don't expect to retire with the equiv of 10 mill. If shit isn't changed here before I retire I'll definitely be moving out of the country.

Honestly its the people who constantly shout out ideological horseshit that don't know what the fuck they're talking about. Like always idealizing the notion of the "Free Market" with little or no regulation. What a bunch of shit. We tried very little regulation in the early part of the country.. and most people in the US became fucking slaves to industry. Anytime you let pure capitalism run free with no government regulation then you simply get a corporate tyranny of the nation.

Then you got the ideological left, saying government should do almost everything. And if they're not careful.. you'll end up with a tyranny clusterfuck like Mao or Stalin. If the gov controls too much, then it's obviously too powerful.

It's called middle ground, douchbags. It's not ideological but it seems to work best to keep us out of fucking slavery. There are shitloads of great socialized programs and I think healthcare should be one of them because it's too important to be ran on by profit-only oriented organizations.

I wish there were this idealized 100% pure capitalistic country that so many repubs imagine where everything in it is privatized. Then we could look at them as an example of what could be. But there's prob a reason that country doesn't exist - because no one would actually want to fucking live there except the slave masters.
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thank you for your contribution to the thread. Best post by far.

It reminds me of the discussions I get myself into when I call Castro a dictator.... I usually get the oh really? then you are a neocon, imperialistic
Bush lover.....
I am not...like you said... middle-ground is where is at.

Somebody else also mentioned this false dichotomy and it is true. If you are against A then you must be for B. Same happens with the health care system as you well described it.
 
Wished I would have jumped into this convo days ago, but now I simply don't have time to respond to all the pro-gov't regulation nonsense. But this I will respond to ....

WickedJoe said:
This forum is far less liberal than most internet sites because you have a lot of people who think they're rich and part of the elite because they make over 100k a yr. It's hilarious. That's the big joke on most repubs.. you've been tricked into thinking you might get rich in your lifetime so you support policies for rich people and corporations.
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Being "rich" doesn't make you a republican. Being self responsible does. So if you believe in handouts, keep electing socialists to the white house and watch the responsible people who are picking up the tab for your broke asses leave ... then you're fucked.
 
WickedJoe said:
This forum is far less liberal than most internet sites because you have a lot of people who think they're rich and part of the elite because they make over 100k a yr. It's hilarious. That's the big joke on most repubs.. you've been tricked into thinking you might get rich in your lifetime so you support policies for rich people and corporations.
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You must be jealous. 100k&up in personal income puts me in the top 20% of earners in America. What I paid in taxes last year is GOOD money for most people. Like a brand new car paid in full type of good money.
If my taxes go up by another 10% I will start cheating on my taxes. Cause I ant giving it to dead beat bums and stupid useless programs I live just fine without.
On top of all that I'm picking up rental properties in the process. When I retire I'd like to keep more of that passive income. I earned it, you asshole.
 
I like the way that France does it: government health care, but they provide financial incentives for doctors to do the best job that they can. Win/win.
 
Mastermind said:
I am rich.
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I knew some rich douche would say that. Good for you. But I'd say you're not really rich unless you have 10mill prob. And if you do then great. Like i said, it'd be great if you had a 100% privatized, no regulation country you could live in. Then your pretty lakes and rivers could be filled with industrial waste. Your lakes could literally catch on fire.. like many in the 70's did. You could have car-sized blobs of chemical bubbles floating down your rivers (happened before environmental regs in the 70s). Because no enviornmental regulation is cool! Cause you're rich! Being a close minded ideolog rocks!

Awww, but that 100% unregulated Free Market country doesn't exist. Because eventually only 1-2 corps would control everything creating a true tyranny and they'd quickly be shot to death by freedom lovers. Unless of course all residents were as brainwashed as you.

If anyone left of you is Liberal, then hell ya I'm a proud liberal. So now you're assigning me things I should/should not believe in.
 
Rusky said:
You must be jealous. 100k&up in personal income puts me in the top 20% of earners in America. What I paid in taxes last year is GOOD money for most people. Like a brand new car paid in full type of good money.
If my taxes go up by another 10% I will start cheating on my taxes. Cause I ant giving it to dead beat bums and stupid useless programs I live just fine without.
On top of all that I'm picking up rental properties in the process. When I retire I'd like to keep more of that passive income. I earned it, you asshole.
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I'm only moderately jealous of your income. Because you don't make all that much. I personally make almost 100k/yr. I'm an honest guy though so I'll definitely admit to being jealous of those who make more than me - income wise. Who the fuck isn't? And what is your point?

I laugh at your obvious feeling of superiority it gives you though. Like i said, everyone wants to be richer. But some of us don't want it so bad that we'll put a fucking gun to our neighbors head to get it.

I just wish so badly you could have grown up and lived in a 100% unregulated Free Market country. Basically, anyone here w/out rich parents also needs to credit moderate socialism for their success. But not one Fox-news watching repub here has yet to admit that we even need SOME socialism. Is the brainwashing that good? Do you even know what socialism means? Hilarious.
 
WickedJoe said:
I'm only moderately jealous of your income. Because you don't make all that much. I personally make almost 100k/yr. I'm an honest guy though so I'll definitely admit to being jealous of those who make more than me - income wise. Who the fuck isn't? And what is your point?

I laugh at your obvious feeling of superiority it gives you though. Like i said, everyone wants to be richer. But some of us don't want it so bad that we'll put a fucking gun to our neighbors head to get it.

I just wish so badly you could have grown up and lived in a 100% unregulated Free Market country. Basically, anyone here w/out rich parents also needs to credit moderate socialism for their success. But not one Fox-news watching repub here has yet to admit that we even need SOME socialism. Is the brainwashing that good? Do you even know what socialism means? Hilarious.
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So you've read a couple of books and now you roll through here to enlighten us...

rofl

If you voted for King Obama you're a liberal bro - it's just that simple.

I grew up with POOOR parents and I credit CAPITALISM with my success.

That and mySELF.
 
also, never said i think there should be no regulation... that has nothing to do with universal health care.

big difference

stop trying to shove the last left wing article you read into an unrelated topic
 
guerilla said:
Because health care is a positive right, and free speech is a negative right.

A positive right confers an obligation on someone else to provide for you. Positive rights are the hallmark of a collectivist society (socialism)

A negative right indicates that no one should interfere with you. Negative rights are necessary for a constitutional or "free" society.

Enormous difference. Not all so-called rights are in fact rights. People assume because they want something or it is necessary for survival, it must be a right. In that case, education is a right. Food is a right. Housing is a right. Perhaps sex is a right. Clean water, clean air. Vitamins and minerals. The list becomes endless.

Healthcare conforms to the limits of the natural world. That is to say, it is scarce. There are not unlimited drugs, doctors or beds. Thus, a profit mechanism is the tested and proven method for rationing scarce goods to maximum efficiency. It's also the driver of medical innovation because there is a profit incentive to serve people better, and in new ways.

The current systems are not free market, and thus there is no competition. Health care almost EVERYWHERE is based on someone other than the patient paying the doctor directly, and thus costs rise because the patient is disassociated from the costs of his care, and the possibilities to pursue alternative care.

It's a pointless argument from my perspective, because the people think it should be "free" then government will give them a system that is "free" in that no patient is accountable for the costs, and thus the doctors are not accountable to the patients.

What the people living under socialized medicine regimes do not understand, is that someone is paying. They just don't pay at the time they need it. Nothing is "free". Doctors and nurses still make great livings. The drug companies and medical equipment suppliers still rack up massive profits, even in socialized systems. The places where cuts come, are always on service to patients. With collective pricing, the patient is unable to compare the value of one service to another, and thus is kept insulated from choice and rational decision making.
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The point of nationalised healthcare is, everyone pays, but those who can easily afford more than their own healthcare can help out the others. Insurance means everyone effectively pays for their own healthcare and no more, because on average people pay as much insurance as their healthcare would have otherwise cost. It may be efficient (although many would disagree) but it means some people simply can't afford healthcare.

"There are not unlimited drugs, doctors or beds. Thus, a profit mechanism is the tested and proven method for rationing scarce goods to maximum efficiency."

That's wrong, if the UK can afford to give every person healthcare, the USA certainly can.

The fundamental problem is this. If you could somehow find out how much every person in America is willing to spend on healthcare, the rich people would say "enough for me to get the best healthcare", even though they could afford far more, the normal people would of course say "enough for average healthcare for me" and thats really all they can afford, and the poor people would say, "I can't afford to pay for healthcare, its just too expensive and I need the money for other things"

So the only way to make sure everyone in the country has proper healthcare is to make the richer people pay for the poorer people (and at the same time make the poorer people pay all that they can of course). So how do you do that? well tax is the only option, you can never rely on charity.

This is all just a hard lesson Britain learned at the start of the 1900s

Some might say, well if the poorer people can't afford healthcare thats their problem they should work harder. And that's what the British used to say, we even had work houses and shit.
 
More than 40% of what I make each year goes to taxes. I pay around $500/mo, each month, for healthcare/dental/eye coverage that I use maybe twice a year for regular checkups crap.

I used to be a Republican, then I was a Libertarian. Now I'm a "who gives a fuck, they are all the same anyway".

I'm all for Gov healthcare, just so long as it's like France's (I know, I hate France, but their Gov Healthcare is probably the best in the world). Though I'm not a fan of what the democrats want to do. They already own the auto and part of the banking industry, I'm sure they can come up with a better plan than what they have now.

Even if Gov healthcare does go into effect, it will be shit though I bet. So then Healthcare insurance companies will just raise the shit out of their rates and probably still offer the same type of healthcare they do now, or a lil worse.

So really, whichever way it does go, UNLESS the plan changes (which of course it won't) and they follow France's healthcare system cheat sheet, everyone will still end up paying more for less and we'll all still be fucked in the end, republican or democrat alike.
 
Jon said:
More than 40% of what I make each year goes to taxes. I pay around $500/mo, each month, for healthcare/dental/eye coverage that I use maybe twice a year for regular checkups crap.

I used to be a Republican, then I was a Libertarian. Now I'm a "who gives a fuck, they are all the same anyway".

I'm all for Gov healthcare, just so long as it's like France's (I know, I hate France, but their Gov Healthcare is probably the best in the world). Though I'm not a fan of what the democrats want to do. They already own the auto and part of the banking industry, I'm sure they can come up with a better plan than what they have now.

Even if Gov healthcare does go into effect, it will be shit though I bet. So then Healthcare insurance companies will just raise the shit out of their rates and probably still offer the same type of healthcare they do now, or a lil worse.

So really, whichever way it does go, UNLESS the plan changes (which of course it won't) and they follow France's healthcare system cheat sheet, everyone will still end up paying more for less and we'll all still be fucked in the end, republican or democrat alike.
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completely agree. France and Japan have good systems. They all have flaws.. but they are way better than what we have here.
 
Imagine this scenario...

Setting: You live on a street with 4 other people (Tom, Dick, Harry, Eugene). Tom has smoked for 20 years and now has lung cancer.

Knock, knock (on your door). You open the door. Dick, Harry, and Eugene are standing on your porch.

You: Hey guys. What's going on?

Dick: Well, you know about Tom, right? He's got the lung bug.

You: Yeah, that sucks. I heard he needs an operation.

Dick: That's why we're here. Can we get $1,000 from you?

You: Uh, no.

Dick: Dude, that's cold. He really needs that operation.

You: Dick, do you remember 20 years ago when we told him not to start smoking?

Dick: Yeah.

You: Do you remember you and I sitting him down several times to tell him to quit?

Dick: Yeah.

You: And you remember my printing reports for him to read about the effects of smoking?

Dick: Yeah.

You. We tried to stop him. And he chose to keep smoking. Now he has lung cancer.

Dick: That's why we need $1,000 from you, man.

You: I gave him $100 last week because he had no food in his fridge. How much did you give him last week?

Dick: That's not the point.

You: I have him $450 last month so he could keep his son in private school. How much did you give him?

Dick: That's not the point. He needs the operation...

You: Those weren't loans. I gave that money to him.

Dick: Well... we need $1,000 from you, man.

You: No.

*** [Dick, Harry, and Eugene leave, muttering something under their breath.]

*** [3 days later.]

*** [Knock, knock (on your door). It's Dick, Harry, and Eugene again.]

You: Hey guys, how's it going?

Dick: We came to collect $1,000 from you for Tom's operation.

You: I told you guys. I don't want to give $1,000.

Dick: Well, me and the guys were talking. We think it's better for everyone if you ponied up the $1,000.

You: No thanks.

Dick: We're not asking.

You: What do you mean?

Dick: We're a majority, man. We outvoted you. Give us the $1,000.

You: No.

*** [Dick pulls a firearm and points it at you.]

You: Whoa, whoa whoa... you're kidding, right?

Dick: Me, Harry, and Eugene here are each giving 15% of our last month's income. You need to give up 15%, too.

You: Wait a second. You and Harry are unemployed. And Eugene works part-time.

Dick: That's not the point. Go get the money Harry.

You: This isn't fair.

Dick: It's humane, man. We're trying to care for the people who need it most.

You: We told Tom to stop smoking! It was his decision!

Dick: That's not the point.

*** [Harry comes back with the $1,000. Dick, Harry, Eugene leave a bewildered "you" on your porch.]


------------------------------
And *that* is democracy, taxes, and health care all rolled up in one.

Go U.S.A.!

I realize some of you probably want to string me up for posting this. But, c'mon... not even a *little* humorous? :)
 
Jon said:
More than 40% of what I make each year goes to taxes. I pay around $500/mo, each month, for healthcare/dental/eye coverage that I use maybe twice a year for regular checkups crap.

I used to be a Republican, then I was a Libertarian. Now I'm a "who gives a fuck, they are all the same anyway".

I'm all for Gov healthcare, just so long as it's like France's (I know, I hate France, but their Gov Healthcare is probably the best in the world). Though I'm not a fan of what the democrats want to do. They already own the auto and part of the banking industry, I'm sure they can come up with a better plan than what they have now.

Even if Gov healthcare does go into effect, it will be shit though I bet. So then Healthcare insurance companies will just raise the shit out of their rates and probably still offer the same type of healthcare they do now, or a lil worse.

So really, whichever way it does go, UNLESS the plan changes (which of course it won't) and they follow France's healthcare system cheat sheet, everyone will still end up paying more for less and we'll all still be fucked in the end, republican or democrat alike.
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Also agree. I've been accused of being an Obama fan so much already but I don't support his Healthcare plan at all. It's far too half assed. And if you don't do it right then everyone loses both liberals and repubs. Of xourse we're all losing big time as is too.

But I think there are other countires we can look to as an example too. England and Canada do well.


I grew up with POOOR parents and I credit CAPITALISM with my success.
That and mySELF.
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That's how I'm guessing many people like you think. But you're completely wrong. I'd like to see how you would have faired w/out any public education whatsoever. Opportunity in the U.S. only exists for people like you and me because of a mix of good socialism, goverment regulation, and capitalism.
Once you realize that you'll stop fearing the words "socialism" and "government regulation". If you admit that we actually need a balance of those things... then the question will just become what balance of socialism, gov reg, and capitalism do we need. And instead of shouting rehashed retarded slogans about the evils of socialism (not saying you did) we can have a real conversation about what needs to be done. What will keep us from working at fucking Walmart at the age of 70 after saving 1mill for retirement but it all going bye bye because of an uncovered operation.
 
This post is full of so much bullshit it is mind boggling.

WickedJoe said:
This forum is far less liberal than most internet sites because you have a lot of people who think they're rich and part of the elite because they make over 100k a yr. It's hilarious. That's the big joke on most repubs.. you've been tricked into thinking you might get rich in your lifetime so you support policies for rich people and corporations.

I've got liberal views on lots of things and conservative on others. I love the 2nd amendment. But in Healthcare I've been convinced we should move more towards socialized medicine.

All I need to know about the argument is that I can be retired, have 1 million dollars banked and then I could need a serious operation which may not be covered by insurance. That operation, or series of operations could wipe that fucking 1 mill out like it's nothing. Then your ass is at fucking Walmart at age 70 and eating fucking dog food. Sounds like fun. You just worked your whole life for nothing.

If you actually research health care in Canada, Britain, etc, you'll see that most republican healthcare myths are exactly that. Healthcare is great there - well far better than here at least.

We've got a seriously fucked up healthcare situation in this country but the religious-like "free market" propaganda in this country is so hardcore it doesn't matter. You'd put a gun to your head if the gov and advertising told you to.And you're pretty much doing just that.

All I know is that my whole agenda is to avoid becoming a fucking wage-slave at any time in my life. Everyone, everywhere is constantly trying to suck your money and life away from you - esp in this hardcore capitalistic country. And unless you have over 10 mill in assets you're actually better off with a more European/Canadian healthcare system. I don't expect to retire with the equiv of 10 mill. If shit isn't changed here before I retire I'll definitely be moving out of the country.

Honestly its the people who constantly shout out ideological horseshit that don't know what the fuck they're talking about. Like always idealizing the notion of the "Free Market" with little or no regulation. What a bunch of shit. We tried very little regulation in the early part of the country.. and most people in the US became fucking slaves to industry. Anytime you let pure capitalism run free with no government regulation then you simply get a corporate tyranny of the nation.

Then you got the ideological left, saying government should do almost everything. And if they're not careful.. you'll end up with a tyranny clusterfuck like Mao or Stalin. If the gov controls too much, then it's obviously too powerful.

It's called middle ground, douchbags. It's not ideological but it seems to work best to keep us out of fucking slavery. There are shitloads of great socialized programs and I think healthcare should be one of them because it's too important to be ran on by profit-only oriented organizations.

I wish there were this idealized 100% pure capitalistic country that so many repubs imagine where everything in it is privatized. Then we could look at them as an example of what could be. But there's prob a reason that country doesn't exist - because no one would actually want to fucking live there except the slave masters.
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I've already pointed out the problem with healthcare, and that is prices are too high because access to care and insurance is highly regulated into oligopolies.

So people just skip that, and advocate socialism, taxes and punishing the wealthy.

There are a bunch of idiots advocating for socialized medicine, completely unaware that they will still have to pay for what they use for "free" either by higher costs when they buy goods from "rich republicans" or taxes, or inflation in the currency, or reductions in the standard of service.

Socializing medicine will only drive costs higher, which means less to go around. FFS someone here learn some damn economics.

The solution is lowering the cost of healthcare, not subsidizing it. The state has no interest in lowering costs, because the drug companies and medical industrial complex lobbies them to keep the protectionism on, and their profits high.

So why anyone would want to give even more power to politicians, when they already have fucked up health care beyond belief, is absolutely stunning, but not totally surprising because most people are fucking idiots like the guy who thinks that people who oppose medical socialism are all republicans, and not liberals who actually want medical freedom to pursue natural care and alternative treatments!

Unsubbed.
 
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